Anxiety Is Not Your Enemy — The Introvert's Guide to Using Discomfort as Fuel

Have you ever tried to push anxiety away right before that big presentation, the hard conversation, or that moment in the room where all the eyes land on you, and found that the more you push it away to ignore it, the worse it gets? But what if the opposite is what you need here? What if the kind of anxiety showing up in these leadership moments isn’t proof that something’s wrong with you that you can’t do this? What if it’s proof that you care enough to be there? Welcome to The Introverted Leader. It’s a podcast helping introverted leaders embrace your underrated quiet strengths so you can get promoted and start earning what you deserve. I’m Greg Weinger. I have over 25 years of leadership experience, and yes, I am an introvert. My guest today is David Rosmarin. He’s a Harvard-trained psychologist who’s spent 25 years working with leaders who carry a lot internally, and his research is about changing the way you relate to those bad feelings that you’ve just been trying to manage. If you’ve ever struggled with anxiety like I have, this episode is for you. Let’s get into it. All right, David, welcome to the show. We’re really glad to have you here. Amazing to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Absolutely. I want to start talking about your ideas around anxiety because they challenge the way some of us may think about that. But before we get into that, I would like to ask you personally, this is The Introverted Leader, do you consider yourself an introvert, extrovert, or other? I’m definitely not an introvert, but I would say I have my moments of social anxiety and also my moments of wanting to be by myself, certainly when I’m running, in which I don’t do as much of these days as I wish I did. I’m alone, and I don’t have music, I’m just there. So I guess I’m an extrovert, but probably leaning a little more extrovert in general. All right, well, no judgment, and certainly all types of personalities are welcome on the show and made a great contribution. So I’m really glad to have you. I appreciate the inclusion. We try to be inclusive. And of course, anxiety is not unique to introverts. So it’s something really all people deal with. It’s fear. But introverted leaders do experience this quite a bit because we’re naturally in a lot of environments where we’re in situations where they’re not necessarily where we’re at our most comfortable. And so these situations can tend to provoke anxiety. But I want to start talking about some of your ideas about how you can start to look at those signals differently and start to reframe them. Sure, let’s talk about the alternative. You know, the alternative to anxiety is a little bit brash, especially for this kind of podcast, a little brash, a little brazen, a little impulsive, a little angry. And think about it, if you had to choose between that cluster versus the internally focused, thoughtful, pensive, connected, a little quieter, more thoughtful, deliberate, that’s a nice another word, which comes with some anxiety, like, which one are you going to choose? Which side of the coin are you hoping is going to land heads up? Yeah, it’s certainly clear what’s your natural inclination and where you’re most comfortable where you spend your time. Yeah, that’s probably much less comfortable to be acting all these things out first. Right, externalizing, as opposed to internalizing. And those are really two ways of dealing with emotions. Some people externalize, they create chaos, they drink, they, you know, drive their car down the highway really fast. Obviously, those are extreme clinical examples, but at lower levels to getting angry, making their emotions shown and known, versus being able to sit with it and having that inner strength and inner core to be able to handle it. Now, there are definitely disadvantages on the internalizing side. Some people can carry around very significant distress and anxiety and pain and depression and quiet and loneliness. So it’s a double edged sword don’t get me wrong. But if you have to choose between the two evils, then like, where are you going to go? Right, right, there are a lot of positives that come from dealing with your emotions first and not inflicting them on other people. Inflicting is, is kind. All right, so that gets us started in thinking about this in a positive way. So anxiety shows up as maybe one of the downsides of this general trend that is pretty positive. I would say at the highest level, we’re talking about it at 10,000 feet. I think there’s some more much more nuanced and sophisticated ways that anxiety is actually very helpful, just the motion in general, maybe not specific to introverts, but that’s really where I’m doing most of my work. Got it. Maybe we could ground this a little bit in an example situation. As an introverted leader, a lot of times you start feeling anxiety in places where you’re more visible, where you’re maybe more exposed. So this is speaking in meetings or like some confrontations, like you have to challenge a decision or something that’s going on. Help us get down a few thousand feet here. How could we start to work with those situations in a more subtle level? Absolutely. So the introverted leaders that I’ve worked with clinically usually have really longstanding relationships with their peers, with their subordinates, with their superiors in certain cases, and often with their families. And even though those relationships can be strained and can be challenging, those relationships remain intact. And that’s a real skill which involves sitting with the pain, sitting with that anxiety, sitting with the consternation and aggravation and stress and difficulty and being able to hold it and metabolize it. Now at a certain point, introverted leaders can get taken advantage of, which obviously is the double edge of that sort, but often that doesn’t happen. Often from what I’ve seen, I’m thinking of one introverted leader who had a very challenging situation with one of his children. And the rest of the family is essentially ready to cut them off. And this person’s relationship persisted over a period of decades. It was really the only anchor keeping that child, well, reasonably sane. I should say not completely insane in that situation. And that’s also a mental lot to that person. And when I spoke with him about his feelings, there was a lot of emotion there and was really very human, something that you often don’t see in high-powered successful leaders. So there’s a beautiful aspect of the inner world of the introverted leader that often doesn’t come out unless they’re in therapy. I get to see it. I get that window. Very blessed to see it. But it often doesn’t come out in public. Yeah, I would guess, though, that the things that make them successful are their empathy and understanding and ability to read people, read the room, that sort of thing. But you were bringing out a theme there of sitting with discomfort and sitting with the pain and sort of this capacity. Is that kind of the core of that strength? Maybe to put it a different way. For people who are struggling with this and feeling, okay, I’m feeling anxiety in this situation. Therefore, I’m not good at this or I can’t do this. What advice do you have in that situation? Firstly, that’s going to happen. If you’re doing anything that’s important in this world, you’re going to feel overwhelmed at a certain point along the way. You’re going to feel like you can’t do it. And that’s actually what makes it a worthwhile endeavor in the first place. If it were so easy that you could just walk up and hit a grand slam, then it wouldn’t be a moment that we would celebrate. It’s not worth the fireworks if you could just anybody can go up and do that. That takes a long time to get into the majors and to be on deck and to have the bases loaded and to get up there under pressure and to knock it out of the park. And you have to wait for your pitch. And like that, all of those things have to come together with a lot of skill. The fact that you’re feeling anxious about that moment, the trepidation of standing up and the pressure and the visuals and everyone’s on you and the cameras and the fans and the, I’m obviously embellishing here, but you that’s what makes it an important moment that you bring anxiety and energy to the situation. The only question is, are you aware of that? And do you link up with those emotions to make the most of the moment? It’s not trying to shut off those feelings or like just this idea that these feelings shouldn’t be here isn’t the most helpful. It’s really about, oh, you should be here. I mean, there’s only one type of person I know who doesn’t have feelings. Well, really two. There’s two types of people I know who don’t have feelings. People who are psychopathic, who don’t care at all. And then the other one are people who are dead. Everyone else has to link up with their feelings, you know, introvert extrovert, ambivert, whoever you are, man, like you gotta, you gotta own it and learn how to deal with it. And it’s just a matter of how we do that. Yeah. And I think introverts are people, maybe they value the control and because we’re keeping everything under wraps internally and outwardly can look very calm or placid, but there may be a lot going on. Maybe there’s like a tipping point where it feels like, oh, this is maybe more than I can withstand. I’m not sure introverts are obsessed with control anymore than extroverts. I think there’s just different ways of dealing with the uncertainty and the uncontrollability of life. And that certainly it’s one of, it’s actually I have three tools in my book, Thriving with Anxiety, which speak to embracing uncertainty and relinquishing control and recognizing that we’re not fully in the driver’s seat all the time and learning to be comfortable with that. Whether you’re more introverted in general or more brash, that’s still an aspect of humanity that I think we all have to deal with. We just have different techniques and dealing with it from a personality standpoint. Right. Could we start talking through those tools, your three key tools? Yeah, absolutely. So we’ve sort of been speaking around them, but to sort of make it more, more direct. One set of tools relates to how we process anxiety ourselves. Does it hold us back entirely or is it something that allows us to sit with the distress and move forward in a methodical way? Are we impulsive about it and do crazy things in order to not feel the feelings or do we allow ourselves to feel them and then to mindfully progress? And that’s really our relationship with ourselves. We have become allergic to anxiety in our culture. And then we start to feel it, we think something’s wrong with us, and that obviously makes our anxiety spike because it increases our adrenaline or cortisol and all sorts of aspects physiologically. Just the interpretation that something’s wrong literally creates a feedback loop. So we have to learn to sit with it and to know that anxiety is part of the human experience. It’s not a disease. It doesn’t mean something’s wrong with you. Not withstanding obviously disordered anxiety, which can get in the way, but usually anxiety is a normal part of the human condition. And that’s the first set of tools. It’s about our relationship with ourselves. Can we link up with ourselves? Yeah, it’s connecting with ourselves and realizing that this is normal part of the human experience. Yes, very much. Healthy. I would even say a healthy part of the human experience. All right. What’s the second one? Second one is linking up with others. Linking up with others. Often introverts, like it seems that they don’t, but they do. They often have the most close relationships. It’s just with one or two or three people. And frankly, that’s what really matters. Do you have somebody, I’ll tell you something interesting. Several years ago, I gave a talk at Harvard College and the head of the Harvard Counseling Center was present and he said something I will never forget. He said that the number one predictor of college students at Harvard doing well in their first year in the freshman year in the first semester even was if they have a single person who they can go to speak in a real way about their emotional state. Can you be vulnerable with another human being? Can you really link up and don’t pretend? It doesn’t have to be on Instagram. It doesn’t have to be on TikTok. It does not have to be a public persona. It does not have to be even in the office. But do you have somebody who can call therapist, friend, spouse, partner, whatever it is, somebody who you can really cry on their shoulder, so to speak. Sounds super powerful. It is. It’s a human need. Yeah. The flip side of that is someone who feels completely alone. And so that’s got to be a very bad sign. The loneliness epidemic is such a significant factor in mental health today that the surgeon general himself has called it out as a number one contributor to health crises that we are experiencing. We are not linked up. We are not connected. When we use our devices, it’s for usually either management of tasks or management of our own impressions on others. And that’s not connection. That’s not linking up. That’s not what it’s about. Anxiety should help us to be vulnerable and real and to own it in the presence of another person. Again, not everybody, but at least one other person. What do I tell you have for someone who feels like they don’t have that person right now? Get someone like today. I don’t care if it’s a therapist. You could pay them. It’s fine. But you need somebody who you can connect with in a real way, even an hour a week, something. You can’t pretend all the time. You’re just having your emotions in the presence of another human being. It’s a human experience that’s needed for health. It’s just a basic aspect of human functioning. It’s like breathing. Do you breathe? Do you eat? And do you have emotions in front of others? An exercise? Sleep? But I put it on that list, really. For sure. I just imagine that there is resistance to this echo here. The echo. You’re hesitating. I can feel the emotions. I can feel your uncomfortable. I think these are feelings of shame that people have that are blocking them from reaching out. Greg, can I tell you something? Yeah. That’s why. That’s why it’s important to link up, because otherwise you’re in a shame spiral. And the only way to get over it is by having those feelings being honest and being real in the presence of another human being. That’ll resolve the shame. Usually the answer or the response you’ll get if it’s a healthy person who you’re speaking with, therapist or otherwise, is, yeah, that makes sense. You feel that way. Tell me more. I want to be here with you. And once somebody has that message that they get, it’s, oh my god, I’m so relieved of the burden of carrying this by myself. I can actually have this in the presence of another human being. I’m not alone. I’m linked up. It’s all the difference in the world. That’s right. I mean, you’re truly not alone. There are other people who are feeling just the same things you are. Other people understand the things you’re going through. And you’ve got to let yourself see that. If you’re the first person to ever have that emotion on earth, wouldn’t you want to know? You’re not. Trust me. As a clinical psychologist who’s been working in this area for 25 years, dude, I’ve heard everything, man. You cannot possibly freak me out by anything you were going to say. And my colleagues are the same way. We’ve heard it all, almost. Once in a while, we’re like, oh, wow, that’s a new one. But okay, it still makes sense. And that’s fine. It’s just human beings are complicated. And this is part of life. We’re not meant to be perfect. We are just not meant to be alone. Absolutely. All right. Well, this is great. I’m sold. How about number three? What’s the third thing in your toolkit here? I would call the spiritual side. There’s our relationship with ourselves or linking up with ourselves, linking up with others. And then I would say linking up with our spirituality, however that’s defined, which involves what we were talking about before, which is embracing the inherent uncertainty and uncontrollability of the world. So much happens on a daily, monthly, yearly, certainly on a decade basis, that is just beyond our comprehension, beyond our ability to predict and certainly beyond our control and really coming to this world humbly and accepting that, embracing it and not getting anxious over a lack of control, but really just doing whatever we can and letting go of the rest. It’s hard. It is hard. It’s something I struggle with personally, and I will share, but it is freeing not to always be burdened by the need to figure things out, be in the know. Those aren’t possible. All we can do is ask our of ourselves is the best that we can give. And beyond that, we’re middle managers. We’re not flying the plane to mix my numbers. Yeah. Seems like there’s a deep undercurrent of self-compassion in here too. I hope so. Yeah. I hope so. Yeah. That’s key. And that’s hard for some people through habit or upbringing. We don’t have that habit of taking it easier on ourselves or cutting ourselves some slack. We do not. It’s very true and it’s very sad and it creates a lot of not just shame, but other difficult emotions that many people carry around, myself included at times. But the solution is fairly simple. It’s really just about linking up. Excellent. So we’re going to link up. And I want to linger a minute on the meaning-making part of what you were saying. And so for someone who maybe hasn’t found something that really is internally motivating in terms of what’s the larger meaning here, where would you direct them? I don’t know if I would direct them. I would ask questions. I would ask a lot of questions like why do you do what you do? What do you think your purpose of your existence is? Maybe that’s too ethereal or high level. What’s the most important thing in your life to you? What gives you a sense of purpose, a sense of meaning, a sense of fulfillment, a sense of connection? Where do you feel the most alive in your life? And I would, after asking those questions, like you tell me, you’re the boss. Yeah. So either doing these questions yourself in journal could help lead you down that path, or perhaps connecting with someone who might serve as a sounding board. I would say for introverts that second part, the interpersonal connection is tough and probably the most worthwhile. And these are sequential. It’s hard to have a relationship with others if you don’t have a strong sense that it’s okay to feel anxious and uncomfortable. And it’s very hard to have a sense of purpose if you haven’t exposed that shame and dealt with it in the presence of another person. So to me, it’s really step one, step two, and step three are these different sequential levels, if you will, interpersonal and then spiritual. That’s a process that I think we have to go through. And I would say that many of the introverts I know and love do get caught more in that second level. So it’s hard to even have the conversation at level three without just letting go in front of somebody else and allowing yourself to feel it and sort of being there, which is tough. It is, but that’s where the opportunity is. Yeah, that aligns with my experience. I had to admit my own anxieties, my own imperfections in the presence of another person. And that helped me overcome that internal shame about these things and then help me talk about them publicly, really. Wow, good for you. How transformational was that for you in your life relative to other things that you’ve done? The most transformational, yeah. Yeah, is the most transformational thing that I’ve done. It’s also super gutsy, right? Scary. Yeah, it’s super scary. Yeah, that’s right. Take that risk and be vulnerable in front of another person and let them in and wonder what are they thinking? And are they going to use it against me? And am I going to regret this? Are other people going to find out? Can I trust them? Your mind goes in all sorts of places. And that’s the opportunity to really connect. Most people, except for the psychopaths out there, are good at heart. And I found that usually when you want to connect with someone, you have to drop your guard. And we all need that connection. So it’s a process. Yeah, it’s interesting. I wonder what motivates other people to get to that point, because if you are not naturally trusting of other people, then you resist this for a very long time. And sometimes it will be a buildup of distress. It has to build up to a point where you’re willing to try something different, or you find the right person where you’re willing to trust that person to do that. Absolutely takes courage, but events pile up in your life where you, at a certain point, you might just decide, I have to try this. If there’s, you know, the alternative, you reach your limit. Yeah, often it does take that crisis in order to get us to connect with others. It doesn’t have to be that way. And I think often, ironically, those crises happen because we’re dysregulated. I’m thinking of a family member of mine, a beloved family member, who I think at an early age, learned that they couldn’t rely on loved ones and on people who should have been there, and became very sensitive to rejection, sensitive to connection, and very sensitive to other people judging them, had really a very deep sense of shame and sadness. And for that individual, it’s been a challenging process because they have their walls up as a default. And thank God, though, that person’s really dropped those walls and learned to connect and learned to speak about their feelings in a more cogent and effective and helpful and healthy way and showing that vulnerability. And it’s created a lot more love in the family. So it’s not an easy process. I don’t want to shortchange that, but being brave and standing up to it is what creates the connections that we all thrive and need. That’s great. So bringing this back to someone who’s maybe earlier on in their career experiencing anxiety, it’s building the connections is building in support for you. So it does take some courage to develop that, but this becomes part of your support system. And the support system is internal and external, and that gives you more support to face some of these more challenging experiences that are coming your way. 100%. And whether that’s a colleague at work who you trust, or whether that’s a warm set of arms to come home to at night, or whether that’s just a confident, a confidant who’s a consultant or a therapist who’s somebody who you can rely on for the long haul, or all three, that’s, it’s still the same thing. It’s, I would just add one word. It’s a necessary support. It’s not an optional support. And you will need to have relationships with others in a real way. It’s just a matter of how long you can hold out. And usually the longer you push it off, the harder it is to develop. And the more crap happens in the end at all. So yeah, go for it. And yeah, the benefits are manifold in your personal life, your work life, deeper connection to others and feeling of what’s possible here is a deeper connection to the bigger picture. Yep. So it’s all about linking up. All right. Well, I really appreciate your perspective here. It seems like a lot of tools around anxiety, they seem like quick fixes. And it strikes me that what you’re trying to do is to create a deeper fix for this and kind of an embracing of anxiety into your life. I appreciate that. Yeah, I think that one of the reasons we’re in an anxiety crisis today is because of those quick fixes. And we’ve really made ourselves more ashamed of the anxiety and more allergic to it. And seeing that it’s not part of our vision, we’re like, of course, when it happens, none of that is true. It’s something that really should be driving us to have a relationship with ourselves, with others. And in the spiritual realm, and as long as we do that and link up, then this is one of the greatest gifts that you could ever have. And that kind of summarizes my perspective on it. And just really appreciate the opportunity to connect with you today on this. Yeah, absolutely. The last question would be, is there anything else that you would recommend or any advice you would have to someone starting out on their leadership journey? Yes, I will tell you this. If you are not anxious as a leader, especially at the early stages of your leadership journey, then something is really wrong. If that’s the case, you need to call me like immediately. If you’re having some anxiety along the way, then consider this, you know, not just permission, but, you know, a blessing that that’s really, you know, supposed to be part of the journey. The question is only how you use it and how you utilize it. And as long as you have the right tools and skills, this can actually be a catalyst to growth professionally and personally and spiritually and every great and every way. So that’s, yeah, I guess that’s what a dish all of you have to say. Awesome. David, if people want to learn more about you and your work in particular, where should they go? Sure. My website is dhrosmarin, my last name, r-o-s-m-a-r-i-n dot com and there’s plenty of free resources there. I also recently joined the Lynx network, which is a large healthcare organization. And you can check out Lynxnetwork.com for more information about services and options and the opportunities rather to link up. And, you know, beyond that, I’m on socials and people can certainly reach out to me directly. I always love connecting with people who hear these, if anything resonates in today’s call. I’m sure it will. Thanks so much for being on the show today, David. Thanks for having me. I loved this conversation and here’s a few things I’m taking from it. When maintaining your daily wellness rituals is important to you, the change in routine during the summer can feel daunting. Kachava’s new travel packs help you stick to your daily ritual even when you’re on the go. Just one packet of Kachava’s all-in-one nutrition shake provides complete nutrition, with 25 grams of protein, 6 grams of fiber, greens, adaptogens, and much more. So you’ll be fueled and ready for wherever life or your summer adventures take you. No fillers, no nonsense. Just the good stuff your body craves. Plus, it actually tastes delicious. But you can try it for yourself because the variety pack includes all six delicious fan favorites. Chocolate, vanilla, chai, matcha, coconut acai, and strawberry. So instead of worrying about sticking to your daily ritual, simplify it with Kachava. Go to kachava.com and use code audio for 15% off. That’s K-A-C-H-A-V-A.com code audio. Number one, anxiety is not a character flaw. It’s a message. It’s your body telling you that something matters to you. Telling yourself it shouldn’t be there. Trying to ignore the symptoms is like telling your anxiety, oh, you need to be louder to get through to this person. It just makes the symptoms worse. Instead, try sitting with it. Listen to the message, and that’s what moves you through it. Number two, the single most powerful thing that you can do for your mental health and your leadership is to have one person that you can confide in to be genuinely real with, not real on Instagram, real in person with a live human being. David Sight’s Harvard Research on this, and I’ll tell you from my own personal experience, the single most transformational experience of my life was being genuinely, emotionally real with another human being. It’s scary, like we said, but it’s so worth it. It will change your life. Number three, David’s three tools they build on each other. First, get okay with your own anxiety first. Then find someone real to be with. Do that work. At that point, you can kind of turn outward and look for a larger meaning and purpose and relinquish control, and a lot of energy is freed up because you’re no longer battling your internal battles. If this podcast resonated with you, the best thing you can do now is to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out every week. I’m Greg Weinger. Keep leading with quiet confidence, and I’ll see you next time.