Friluftsliv — The Swedish Secret for Introverts to Restore, Recharge, and Lead

Some days you just want to amplify your everyday look. Like when you want the look of false lashes without the extra effort? Reach for Thrive Cosmetics Liquid Lash Volumizer Mascara. Or when you want all eyes on your smile, keep Empower Gloss Ultra Glossy Lip Serum in your bag. It’s a burst of 24-hour hydration that smooths like a serum, shines like a gloss, and can be worn sheer or layered. You’ll always look and feel your best with Thrive Cosmetics. Plus, every product is 100% vegan, cruelty-free, and made with clean, skin-loving ingredients that work with your skin. Not against it. Amplify your everyday. Go to thrivecosmetics.com slash shine26 for an exclusive offer of 20% off your first order. That’s Thrive Cosmetics, C-A-U-S-E-M-E-T-I-C-S dot com slash shine26. With On Point’s auto loan beat rate, you can get more out of your car by paying less on your auto loan. Show us your rate from another financial institution, and we’ll work to show you a better one. We keep the process simple and streamlined, so you can enjoy every mile from now on just a little bit more. It’s another example of how On Point puts members in the driver’s seat. Learn more at onpointcu.com. On Point Community Credit Union, federally insured by NCUA. Have you ever finished a long day of back-to-back meetings, and you’re sitting there just completely wiped? Not just tired, like the part of your brain that thinks clearly, that creates and leads well is just gone, and you’re wondering, what do I actually need right now? Welcome to the Introverted Leader. It’s a podcast helping introverted leaders embrace your underrated, quiet strengths, so you can get promoted and start earning what you deserve. I’m Greg Weinger. I have over 25 years of leadership experience, and yes, I am an introvert. My guest today is Linda McGurk. She’s a Swedish journalist and author of The Open Air Life. She spent years studying and showing why the Scandinavian philosophy of free-less leave makes introverted leaders not just more effective, but healthier. Let’s get into it. Linda, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. I’m so excited to be here, and glad you invited me. You’re speaking to us from Sweden, correct? I am. I live here now. I was born and raised here, then I lived in the US for about 15 years, and then I moved back to my native Sweden in 2018, so I live here now with my daughters, my family. Yeah, you don’t betray any accent at all, speaking English. Yeah, I can keep up the charade for a while, we’ll see. I’m sure you’ll notice it eventually. So welcome to the introverted leader, and I have to ask you, do you identify as an introvert, extrovert, or other? I would say definitely an introvert around people. It’s not that I don’t enjoy being around people, I do, but it also exhausts me, and I have a huge need for recharging my batteries, and especially outdoors and nature, where I can be by myself and just unwind and relax, so I would say definitely introvert. Excellent, and you’ve done lots of thinking in and written books about that subject, about recharging, which I’m excited to get into here. Could you tell us a little bit more about your early life experiences growing up in Sweden, moving to the US, and then some of the cultural differences that arose there? Yeah, so I was, like I said, I was born and raised here in Sweden, and we do have a very outdoorsy culture, it’s sort of a point of national pride. We have something called friluftsliv, which roughly translates to open air life, and it’s this philosophy to connect with nature in everyday life, and when I grew up, this sort of translated to napping outdoors when I was a baby, and then in preschool, we played outdoors for hours every day, it’s actually written into the national curriculum of the preschool here that kids have the right to play outdoors, and we had a lot of recess, and my family just took me outdoors a lot to hike and camp and ski, and we just did not identify as an outdoorsy family at all, we were just doing what most people do around here, and as a child, we would just be outdoors all the time, and there was no point in complaining about bad weather either, because all the adults would just lecture us with this phrase, there’s no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing, so they would just kick us out to play regardless of the weather, and we didn’t have snow days, I mean a snow day to us was when it literally snowed, and then I moved to Indiana, and I had two daughters there, and it was quite the culture shock coming over there, because I noticed people, a lot of people had almost like a fear of being outdoors, they had a fear of nature, or the weather, or parents were very worried about abductions and so on, and it was almost like people hibernated in the winter time, people would run to the store and stock up on milk and bread as if the apocalypse was coming, and everything shut down, school was closed, and sometimes the business is closed, and it was just very different from the culture that I had grown up in. I’m curious how that felt for you, that must have been jarring, and this was very different, did you adapt to that, that pattern, or did you kind of buck that trend? It was difficult at first, and then I also, when I became a parent, it became even harder, because I noticed this sort of culture clash sort of deepened, because when I just did what I had been taught to do, so I took my baby outdoors even in the freezing cold, and people really reacted to that in Indiana, there were some people who told me I was brave for being out there in the cold weather with my daughter, there were others who thought I was reckless, and they thought she was going to get sick, and that it was dangerous for her to be out there, and then it was just a strange situation, it made me feel really lonely in my, sort of in my parenting experience, and at the same time, talking to older Americans, I knew that it hasn’t always been like that in the U.S. either, I mean childhood has really moved indoors, play outdoors, till the street lights came on, right, and so I became curious, you know, I wanted to find out more about that, so I started researching this, what had happened, and I came across the works of Richard Louv, who’s been really pivotal in the movement to get children back outdoors, and that kind of sowed the seeds for my own books, and I figured I couldn’t be the only parent in the U.S. who felt like something was really awry here, and at the same time, kids were just getting stuck on screens, I mean this was, my daughter was born in 2008, and the smartphones were emerging just at around the same time, social media and all of that, so I realized that unless I did something drastic, my kids were going to have a really different childhood from my own, so I started to become really intentional with taking them outdoors, I knew I couldn’t change everything, I couldn’t change the preschool or the school, but I could try to balance all that indoor time by taking them out, so I really tried to connect them with nature from an early age, and I really sort of fell back on that culture that I came from with a whole free-listly mindset, and I started a blog to reach out to other parents, and then one thing sort of led to another, and I ended up writing the books, and yeah, it’s snowballed. Yeah, so the two books are There’s No Such Thing as Bad Weather, which kind of says it all, and then The Open Air Life. Did you in your research, how is this potentially connected with the free-range parenting movement there? It really goes hand in hand, skin and avian, parenting, ethos is also to give children freedom with responsibility, and especially as it applies to freedom outdoors. We believe in risky play, where exploring the outdoors alone is a part of that. We think that it gives kids some key skills, that just sitting in a classroom at a desk and reading a book won’t teach you, and those are things like problem solving, executive function, planning your actions and following through and setting goals, all that, and just learning how to take responsibility and learning how to be in the world when there are no adults or parents to tell you what to do. Just learning to make those decisions, make judgment calls about risk, risk taking, playing outdoors and free-range parenting. I think those are key ways of fostering those kinds of skills in children. Yeah, I love that term risky play. I was reading about probably in Sweden and maybe some other countries, they actually build parks to support that now because children don’t necessarily get that same opportunity in urban areas to be in nature, but so they kind of create spaces where it’s just kids and they have that kind of opportunity. The term risky play, I think, was coined by a Norwegian professor, Ellen Biotte, sunset there in the 90s. What she found was that kids who are not allowed to take these small risks when they’re younger, they’re more prone to take, you know, negative risks when they’re older. So things like shoplifting were actually more common among children who were not allowed to explore risky play when they were younger. Yeah, so connecting this back to introversion, they seem like opportunities to give people self-confidence, whether they’re outgoing or more introverted. And so these are just positive situations in which to grow up, maybe set you up for success, no matter how your personality is initially wired. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, just takes something like tree climbing and nature just offers so many opportunities for natural challenges for children to sort of try their hand at. And when a child climbs a tree, I mean, they learn to pursue a goal and they learn to figure out risk. You know, they have to check every branch and see is that branch, is that going to be strong enough to hold me and they have to plan their path? How high can I go? What happens if I fall? All those sorts of judgments they have to make. And sometimes they are going to fail and they’re going to learn from that too. I think one of the most important lessons from free outdoor play for a child is to learn grit. You try something, there’s so much trial and error. So they might try something, they fail, they try it again, and they might do it slightly differently. And maybe next time, they’ll succeed. And I think in the Nordic countries, I think parents are really see the benefits of that. So they tend to step back and let the children really try, learn through trial and error. And I think that’s a good thing. Yeah, and courageous, because that can be hard to watch or hard to sit with your instinct to protect and knowing it’s best for them. I mean, we’re wired to protect our progeny. I mean, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. But I think when it goes too far, it has the opposite effect. We forget that there are risks of bubble wrapping children too and not letting them take risks. You’re actually making them less safe, because then they’re going to come out in the world one day, they’re going to be 18, and they have no idea how to handle these situations in real life. So I think we’re doing them a disservice by protecting them from all discomfort. Experts on risky play, they say that we shouldn’t keep our children as safe as possible, but just as safe as necessary. And there’s a slight difference there, but it’s important to know that difference. Right, not major harm, but grapes and bruises, the odd and broken limb, which I think most of us suffered, but I totally agree. Shifting gears a little bit. How do you recommend incorporating this into your adult working life? How does that play out in the Swedish workplace? And then what would you recommend for other people? And how does it help? So it used to be that Felicity was the realm of just your free time, like outdoor activities, and it still is too. It’s hiking, skiing, camping, foraging for berries, mushrooms, kayaking, non-motorized, low-key activities in nature. And it still is, but it’s really branched out and into the workplace. And we’ve seen this happen in the past few decades here in the Nordic countries where business leaders will take employees on walk-and-talk meetings, for example, because they see the positive effects of getting team members outside, informal, sort of brainstorming sessions. We have some businesses organizing running sessions during lunch for their employees, or even things like team building events, or what do you call it, like kickoff sessions, often now take place, for example, around a fire in the forest, like they will, instead of doing the traditional kickoff at a hotel, they might choose to go to some wilderness huts and do a kickoff there. It’s just a very different experience. It’s a way of getting people relaxed and sort of on an equal footing. One of the things that they notice with the walk-and-talk meetings is that when people are outdoors and not stuck in a stuffy conference room, it can help boost creativity. And that’s something that just happens when we’re outside. It opens up certain parts of our brain that only activated when we’re outdoors. And also, as you’re walking side by side, it sort of changes the dynamics between a leader and employees. It puts people on a more equal footing, and it might help put people at ease to talk about some more uncomfortable topics, sensitive things, and so on. And not to mention all the health benefits that can come out of just having people more physically active outdoors. I mean, there are a number of health benefits that are associated with fearlessly and just being active outdoors, both the physical benefits and mental benefits. So we’re seeing it incorporated now in business, but also in therapy. Therapists are using interesting things like forest bathing, which is that’s from Japan. But I see it incorporated now in the fetus lead culture, which is interesting. It can be used for people who are burnt out, for example, too at work. We use it in the health care system here in the Nordic countries, both as preventive, but also to treat people who have been burned out and who are far removed from the workplace long-term unemployed. And those programs are very successful. They’ve actually found that these nature therapy programs are, in many cases, more effective than regular therapy and medicine as well. Yeah, it’s really fantastic. I read that just just the fact that you may be walking forward, you’re not necessarily forced to have eye contact, which I think for some introverts could be more comforting, especially you’re not completely comfortable with the other person and allows for more bonding in that sense. Some of the effects are measurable, too. I mean, a minute we go outside, cortisol levels drop, and cortisol being the hormone that is associated with stress. So we feel less stressed and also heart rate drops, blood pressure drops, and we’re getting exposed to daylight, which can help prevent seasonal affective disorder, because it boosts the production of serotonin, which is the happy hormone. So some of this is just pure chemistry, and some of it is also just, I think, this feeling that we belong in nature, and we, I don’t know if you’ve heard the biophilia theory, but it’s this theory that we are drawn to nature because we have evolved in nature. So when we are in these green spaces and blue spaces, we immediately feel at ease, because we know that that’s been key to our survival in the past. And I mean, it still is. We’re just further removed from it now. Yeah. So for introverts, this all seems like a very natural way to help manage your energy and grab the space to recharge. If you’re a leader in a workplace, especially if you’re in an office, then this may be a loud, noisy, stimulating environment. You’re having lots of conversations and meetings. If you had access to the outdoors, if you’re able to get out, this seems to offer a great opportunity to recharge. And depending on what you have access to, it can be very, very healing. What would you recommend for people who are in an office environment? Maybe your leadership isn’t hip to this yet. So what are some things that you could do? I think that you can just little things. Just step outside during the day if you have an opportunity to do that. And even if you are in a city, I mean, it can still be beneficial. I mean, part of the philosophy is sort of to reframe the way we see nature, not to see it just as pristine wilderness. Nature is more than national parks. Nature is, in fact, all the forces around us that we can’t control. So even in a city during a very urban setting, you can practice your ability to notice nature around you. And I think children are very good at this. They tend to feel awe at the littlest things. They’ll see a caterpillar trying to cross the road and they stop in their tracks. I think we tend to lose some of this ability as we get older. And I think it’s something that we can practice. So step outside, just take some deep breaths and look at the sky and look at the clouds drifting by. Try to notice the weather. Was it raining? What do those raindrops feel like on your forehead? Is the wind blowing? What do you hear? Can you hear any sounds that aren’t man-made? Maybe birdsong. Maybe take your lunch outdoors. A suggestion too, I suppose, for leaders out there. Try to make some outdoor environments available to your employees. It doesn’t have to be an enormous space, but maybe at least some seating where they can, like I said, have lunch outdoors. I mean, we’re seeing some amazing examples of this here in Sweden just near where I work. There’s a new building that houses amazing outdoor space on the roof. So it’s a flat roof and they have, I mean, they planted trees up there. They have all sorts of native plantings. They even have a walking track where people can walk during their breaks, which, and I know, I mean, this is like, it sounds utopian, but start where you are and use what you have and do what you can. That’s my philosophy with a lot of things. As soon as you become aware of these benefits of the outdoors, I think as a leader, look at what you can do. Can you initiate like a lunchtime walk or maybe even bring in somebody like another company I know of. They brought in one of the former elite runner to have like running lessons with their employees and fun things like that or contribute to bike riding, for example. Like maybe that could be a benefit that employees can get a good price on an e-bike. Things like that. Things that help people incorporate the outdoors into their daily rhythm because that’s what fetishly really is about. Trying to make these connections and small daily connections in your regular life. Anyone can step outside and walk and to your book’s point with the right amount of clothing, even in the rain. I’m in the Pacific Northwest where it’s not Swedish cold, but it’s cold enough and it’s raining throughout the winter. Bike commuting is a really big thing here. That’s part of the reason I actually moved to the city. I was really interested in bike commuting. I got all my rain gear and then my bike and my employer offered bike racks and a shower. They were encouraging that lifestyle. As gray and gloomy as it is here, when you bike for half hour through the driving rain and you show up completely energized and invigorated, it’s just something you can look forward to at the start and end of your day to wash away the stress. Prepare you for your day and then wash away the stress at the end of the day. I love that they do that for you. I think modeled a lot after European cities, but yeah, that’s catching on in certain places in the US. That’s great to hear. I think it’s so important to build it into your regular routine because I think a lot of the time I hear, well, I just don’t have the time. I don’t have the time for the outdoors, but then they’ll go to the gym after work, but that way, if you ride your bike to work, then you’ve already got your workout in already and you were outside too. It’s a win-win, I think. You get all that fresh air at the same time and not to knock on people going to the gym. That’s great as well, of course, but if you can kill two birds with one stone, that’s even better, I think. Yeah, in terms of time efficiency, especially for a parent, you really can’t beat that. Yeah. How do you think about mindset? When you talk to people or when you’ve come across people in the US, do you encounter barriers to really doing this in terms of mindset? Yeah, a little bit. I think it’s hard to generalize about the US because the states are so incredibly different and that’s one of the things that really surprised me when I moved to the US. I actually lived in Montana for a couple of years before moving to the US and I will tell you that the difference between Montana and Indiana were actually greater than the difference between Sweden and Montana. That’s interesting. Yeah, but I can definitely see that if you don’t get this when you’re not raised in a culture where outdoor time is valued, then it becomes a lot harder to absorb that later on or it’s harder to see the benefits, I think. I think it really helps. I mean, we get it with our mother’s milk almost here in the Nordic countries and so there was a lot of resistance. I mean, I could see it just in the, I mean, for several years, I did try to work with a preschool and the school. I remember, for example, when my oldest daughter was in preschool and they were going to do like an end-of-the-year event, they always did and I suggested we take all the kids to a nature preserve and the preschool teachers, they were just like horrified. They’re like, no, we can’t take them there. There’s like way too many dangers. Like somebody can fall off a cliff and I just, I didn’t understand because I had taken my kids there since they were, since I was carrying them on my back and they had always been roaming around there, but if you haven’t grown up doing that and you haven’t raised your kids doing that, then there’s going to be a fear and so that culture is very hard to change. Yeah, maybe pro-tip, not that I’m a pro in this, but touching on the pandemic, one of the things that we did as a family for our kids, we got a dog and that actually multiplied the time that all of us spend outside by a factor of like three or five because we were walking the dog three times a day and going out into our neighborhoods and visiting our parks and you go out into nature and it’s their solitude in nature, but in fact, when you’re out walking, there are many more social opportunities for you, which can be very healthy for people who are stuck inside, maybe some people who are naturally introverted and you know, required to do so for your dog in every kind of weather. Yeah, you don’t get to choose. Like if you have a dog, you kind of have to get out there. So I think, I think dog owners are probably some of the most devoted three-lift sleeve practitioners out there because they, they are always out, out there walking. So that’s, that’s great. And you mentioned something else about solitude. I mean, it’s something that you can do by yourself if you feel like you need that solitude, but it’s also, it’s something that is passed down from generation to generation. It’s often done as a family. So it’s something that we do to strengthen bonds between family members, but also in the community. It’s a way to create ties between people in the community. So, so you can choose how to do it, which I think is, is great as well. And as an introvert, to me it’s important to, to get out there and feel like I can be in solitude, but I can also bring people that I love. And it’s also okay to be silent with people, even when you’re with people. And I think in nature that just comes more naturally than if you’re like sitting indoors. Nature just invites that sort of silence, but it’s not an uncomfortable silence. It’s a silence that you’re comfortable with. Yeah, there’s, I just came to think of that as you mentioned, the social aspect of it. Yeah, I really like that. I think that a lot of introverts would find that appealing something about the beauty or the awe-inspiring nature of nature of nature. It produces silence in people, which there’s a, there’s a comfort in being around people, but also sharing an experience and being silent. Yeah. Well, it’s just really inspiring just to hear about the depth that this practice has has been brought through the culture. And there’s a wisdom that’s developed because of the weather. How do people thrive when the weather is so challenging and these cultures have figured it out? Yeah. Yeah. And it also, it developed as a way to get away from the noise and the crowds. So I suppose it’s always been an introverts dream, this whole, this whole culture and philosophy. And it was developed at the end of the 1800s. And you can imagine, I mean, compared to the societies that we live in today, even back then, they thought the villages and the cities were getting too busy. They would be quaint and quiet by today’s measures, I’m sure. But compared to what they were used to with the agrarian societies, it was a big change. And so it sort of grew out of people’s longing for a lifestyle that they felt had been lost. And I feel like today, I feel like society is, it really sort of caters more towards extroverts, if you know what I mean. Like I think we’re socialized into that from when we’re little, when we start daycare school. And from the beginning, we’re socialized into being in big groups, confined spaces, it’s crowded, it’s noisy. And we’re taught to take up a lot of space where we’re supposed to stand in front of the group and talk and things that still make a lot of people uncomfortable. And so I think Fidesse is really, it’s a vent that we can use to balance that. But it’s, to me, it’s always been, it’s been a backdrop, something that I’ve been able to fall back on and good times and rough times. The best form of self-care that I have. When I go into the forest, I feel like there’s no place I’d rather be. I feel like my time couldn’t be better spent. And so it makes it easy to let go of work and to just let the brain zone out. And there’s no pressure to achieve, there’s no pressure to compete, there’s no pressure to produce anything. And so it is just really a way to open up all those creative juices. I don’t know if you’ve ever felt this, but a lot of times when I’m stuck on a problem in front of my computer, a lot of times I have sat for a long time and I can’t think of a solution. And then I go outside and I hit the trail. And maybe when you walk the dog, that’s a lot of times that’s when I come up with the best ideas. I just have, like, I’m a writer. So sometimes I just have these sentences come into my head that I’ve been mulling over for hours. And then all of a sudden they just come to me when I’m outside. So it definitely, it definitely enriches my personal life, but also my work life. Absolutely. Change of environment and movement create a new state where creativity can flow. And yeah, that’s, I’ve heard people suggest go no more than 20 minutes without getting up and moving because, because you do get stuck, you get stuck in those ruts of thought. I absolutely agree. And yeah, it’s one of the highlights of my day to get to take my dog to the park at lunchtime. Yeah. And there’s a theory too of why we do feel so relaxed outside. It’s called attention restoration theory or ART. It holds that when we’re really focused on something, it sort of separates between directed attention and sort of the soft fascination. So directed attention is the things that take a lot of our focus. So like driving a car through busy traffic or trying to solve a complicated math problem or speaking in front of a crowd, for example. It really sort of, it makes us tired. And so when in nature, when we go outside, that allows us to to feel the soft fascination. So our minds are still alert, but it focuses us in a more relaxing way. It sort of boosts our fascination for fractal patterns, for example. You might look at a pine cone or a fern leaf and things like that. And that really relaxes our brains. And so you can really balance out that sort of directed attention that is required maybe at work with this more soft fascination that you find in nature. Yeah, we’re really not wired to go with that directed attention eight hours a day, you know. Right. We’re really evolved for a different mix of attention. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I love this. This just strikes me as so practical for people, that people can apply immediately in their lives and really trying to create spaces within the day, you know, to manage energy for introverts to improve performance, enhance creativity, like just the benefits can, you know, go on and on. But it’s great that you’ve tried to help us who, you know, didn’t necessarily get raised in that kind of culture and spread that around. Yeah. Well, thank you. Yeah, I do hope that I’ve contributed somehow to this movement. My first book is mostly focused on getting kids back outside. But the second book is more geared toward adults of all walks of life. And I write about work life, some there, too, the walk and talk meetings and so on. And, you know, using nature for support here in the Nordic countries, it’s common to turn to nature in times of crisis. For example, people who receive like a cancer diagnosis or lose a child and things like that, who are going through some really hard times, they tend to turn to nature because they feel connected to something greater when they are out there. I mean, I really think it is universal, this bond that we have with nature. We’ve just been socialized out of it. Unfortunately, we’ve become disconnected from nature. We see it on so many levels, partly because of urbanization, of course, we’ve built cities that are not very green. It’s become harder for people to connect on a daily basis. But I think we’re at a pivotal moment now and we’re hearing more and more about the need for greening our cities. I think that’s really the key. I don’t think people are going to move back to the country. I mean, some people will, but I think urbanization is here to stay. So if we’re not going back to the countryside, then we need to bring nature to the cities. And it will be interesting to see where all that goes. Yeah, absolutely. Very much needed. Yeah, just regulate temperature and as well as to bring nature in. Your second book is The Open Air Life, the one for adults. Yeah, or focused on adults. Excellent. And if people want to learn more about you and your work, where should they go? Yeah, I have a website, LyndaMcGurk.com. They can find me on Instagram and Facebook under the handle rain or shine mama. And that’s mama with two N’s. I also have a sub stack. And that’s where I do most of my writing these days. And the sub stack is called The Open Air Life. So that’s probably, yeah, that’s one of the best ways to keep track of me and upcoming events and so on. I do some speaking events and so forth. So yeah, definitely look me up. Write me a note. Absolutely. Lynda, it’s been so great to have you on the show. Maybe if I show up in Sweden sometime we can go for a walk. Yeah, definitely. I would love to. I’ll guide you around. Excellent. Thanks. Thank you. Let’s take a moment to recap what I’m taking away from this episode with Lynda. Number one, the restorative power of being outdoors is real. It’s grounded in science. The minute you step outside, cortisol drops. Your heart rate settles and your brain gets a break from that directed focused attention, that efforting that depletes us as introverted leaders the most. Your energy is a resource and nature is one of the most efficient ways to replenish it. Number two, the walk and talk meeting is an introvert’s friend. When people are moving side by side, the hierarchies fall away. The pressure of eye contact isn’t there and quieter people tend to open up. That’s something you can initiate as a leader and it benefits everyone. And number three, you don’t have to wait to get to the forest or some weekend getaway to start. Freeless leave is really about your daily intention to be outdoors, just out of your house. Walk the dog. Ride your bike to work if you can. Build the habit of being outdoors into your daily routine and the benefits will compound. If this episode resonated with you, the easiest thing you can do now is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. It helps the show reach more introverted leaders who are quietly doing the work and deserve to hear that message that you are enough. I’m Greg Weingar. Keep leading with quiet confidence and I’ll see you next time.