From Overstimulated Introvert to Quietly Confident — Michaela Chung

The Bleacher Report app is your destination for sports. Right now, the NBA is heating up, March Bandit’s here, and MLB is almost back. Every day there’s a new headline, a new highlight, a new moment you’ve got to see for yourself. That’s why I stay locked in with the Bleacher Report app. For me, it’s about staying connected to my sports. I could follow the teams I care about, get real-time scores, breaking news, and highlights all in one place. Tell of the Bleacher Report app today so you never miss a moment. Welcome to the Powerful Introvert Podcast. I’m Greg Wanger, and I’m here today with Michaela Chung. Welcome. Hi, thanks for having me. Hey, I’ve got you. Really, really great to have you on the program today. You’re an author and a comedian, which are two professions that I respect very highly, probably more highly than doctors and lawyers in my personal hierarchy. But you speak and write about introversion, and you’ve been doing this for quite some time. Is that correct? Yeah, about 11 years now. Yeah, since 2013. Yeah, that’s fantastic. Your website you run is Introvert Spring. Yeah, IntrovertSpring.com. The mission has always been to help introverts to embrace who they are and to really enhance their confidence and their connection skills, while still being true to who they are. That’s right. And this is a popular website. I have a bit of a confession. I came to this pretty recently. I was reading Susan Cain’s work about three years ago, and I just started having all these brilliant ideas. I like someone should write books about this. Someone should write websites. All this great content had been out there for all this time. And unfortunately, it wasn’t reaching me, and that’s partly why I’m doing this work. But you’re one of these people who built these incredible websites and built this great content. So you’re kind of an OG of the quiet revolution. I am. Yeah. So I started IntrovertSpring. I think it was like maybe a year and a half after Susan Cain’s book came out, something like that. So yeah, there wasn’t much out there. And I mean, relatively speaking, there’s still not a ton out there. You know, there are introvert coaches, but it’s still compared to other niches. It’s still not nearly as saturated. Which is kind of remarkable considering we’re 50 to 60% of the population. Yes. Yes. Can you tell me a little bit about the, you know, your introvert expert origin story? So I actually, I started my website originally because I was taking a copywriting course, and the instructor told me, hold students, to start a website and social media on a topic that they felt like they could write about for years and years, right? So something that really resonated with you. And I chose Introversion. I actually had taken a personality test years earlier, discovered I was an introvert, and it was really life changing for me in that it kind of made me feel vindicated. I was like, wow, you know, there’s not something horribly wrong with me. There are other people like me. And I also had experiences where, you know, I was traveling, for example, and I was surrounded by extroverts and I would, you know, get over simulated, get overwhelmed and feel like there’s something wrong with me. And I think, you know, all introverts have had these times in their lives where people have been like, why are you so quiet? You should, you should open up, you should do this, you should do that. And what it really makes us want to do is just shut down and, you know, put up our shells. I really wanted to help other introverts to embrace who they are and to never have to feel like there is something wrong with them. Yeah, no, that’s, that’s great. And did on your website, you mentioned doing some travel, extensive travel. And is, is that the travel experience that you’re talking about where you kind of had some of these revelations about your introversion? Yeah, I had decided I was going to like, quit my job. Sell everything and go on this hero’s journey to find my purpose. You know, doing the copywriting course was one of the things I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I had traveled to Australia and I was traveling through Latin America when I started introverts spring. It was a New Zealand that I had linked up with some other travelers and we spent a lot of time going, you know, to different beaches and sites and we went out to like a hookah bar and dancing. And I had, I actually had a bit of a meltdown because I had reached the point where I was drained. I was in the red zone. And a very extroverted man was essentially bullying me into, you know, being more outgoing. And he really, he didn’t mean to. He just didn’t understand. He was like, why are you quiet? Like you need to talk. You need to like, seize the day and this and that. But this is at the end of the day. This is like after, you know, five hours with these people. So for me, I was like, oh my god, like, that’s the last thing I can do right now. I really should have just left, you know, at that point. And so I did like have a bit of a, you know, meltdown. I started to cry. So that was a turning point for me where I really thought, I’m sure a lot of other introverts have experienced this and I don’t think it’s right. I want to develop this, this website, this community where people feel like they belong and they understand themselves. And so when these things happen, well, maybe prevent them from happening, how to deal with it and still feel good about themselves afterwards. Yeah. Now, that’s really great then that you start to capture these and because there’s so many situations like that and I had a similar experience where like just, you know, for a lot of my life, I felt like, you know, something was wrong with me for not having more energy in these situations or not being, you know, wanting to be in those kinds of situations. And I’m sure a lot of introverts feel that way. Yes, definitely. I think it’s something that is just, it’s always going to happen if you’re, if you’re still living your life and you’re out in the world, but you just learn to navigate it better. I, I think I asked more questions too. If someone invites me to something, especially if, you know, we’re going to be traveling together, we’re going to be spending an extended amount of time in a group setting. I’m like, okay, how many people are going to be there? How long is this for? Like questions that an extrovert might not think of. And it’s just like an automatic thing, right? Mm-hmm. Right. And how am I going to get breaks? And is there going to be a place where I could go and sit, maybe have a downtime or meditate and incorporating those things in? Yeah, exactly. You’re taking those, those little introvert breaks, those pockets of solitude where you can. You know, like life can be unpredictable and so can our energy levels. And so sometimes I can just, you know, be socializing for hours and feel like I have tons of energy and be talkative and other times I’m not. So I think, you know, we have to recognize that as well. When people meet me in certain scenarios, they might think that I’m extroverted. And that’s just because I happen to maybe be at the peak of my social energy cycle and where I just feel really comfortable and energized by my surroundings. And there might be other situations where I’m like, maybe it’s before a show. I’m nervous. I’m saving all my energy for the stage. I guess, you know, we introverts are very complex. All humans are. Yes, we are. And that sort of explains, yeah, you might come across as extroverted the first time someone meets you by chance. And then, and then, you know, you hear the generalizations of introverts are hard sociable. It’s really not not true. Maybe we’re not social, sociable around you in particular, but, you know, or to certain situations, but absolutely we are. So in a show is that a comedy show? Is that are we? Oh, yes. Yes, a stand up comedy show. Yeah, I guess we haven’t talked about that. Yeah, I do stand up comedy as well. I’ve been doing that for about seven years. Yeah. Yeah. So I’ve actually, you know, I’ve toured here in Canada and I’ve come up with a comedy album called Daddy Issues. So, yeah, I’ve been on the stand up comedy journey for a while as well. That’s, that’s awesome. So please help, you know, there might be some introverts in our audience who have trouble wrapping their head around, okay, you’re an introvert and you’re doing stand up comedy. So, so how did that work out for you? A big reason why I was even thinking of doing stand up is because I had already been doing introvert spring. So working online for several years, like maybe seven, six, seven years at that point. And I just was really missing live in the moment human connection. And how it actually happened was kind of funny. I was in Peru for an introvert retreat and it was the end of the retreat. I was on my own at a hotel and I got really bad food poisoning. And all I could do for like 24 hours was just lie on my side in bed and I started watching YouTube videos and I stumbled upon this comedian Angela Johnson who I resonated with. Like I just, I was watching her and in my delirium I thought like, oh, you know, I think I could do that. I think I could be good at that. It was one of those weird ideas that just comes to you. And I was kind of like in a, at a low point, I think maybe just missing connection. I was a little heartbroken. And so I was like, maybe I’ll just give it a try. What do I have to lose? So when I got back to Canada, I did. I entered a stand up comedy competition and I’ve, I did quite well in it. And I’ve been doing it ever since. That’s, that’s pretty inspiring. And did you, oh, did you ask how an introvert would get into that? Yeah. Because I guess I didn’t address the introvert piece, which is something that comes up a lot and I understand it. But it’s kind of like, it’s kind of like saying, well, how can an introvert be a teacher? You know, it’s like not every aspect of being a teacher perfectly suits an introvert. You’re up in front of people every day and it actually is quite draining being a teacher. Yeah. But yet there are lots of introverted teachers. The main aspect of being an introvert is where you get your energy. You get your energy from being alone. You lose energy from stimulating environments and from socializing. And so there’s nothing in there about like not being able to use your voice, not being able to be creative and out there in the world. It’s just like, well, you may have to factor in certain things as far as like over stimulation, energy drain, that sort of thing. And that’s what I found with comedy is the issue for me is not like that it’s too scary because that’s shyness. Like, I’m not shy in that respect. But I do get drained by it, maybe more than some other comedians. But I have found that there are a lot of introverted comedians. A lot of introverted comedians. And I think people just get confused because they see what’s happening on stage. Like Amy Schumer, for example, she has a whole chapter in her book about being an introvert. People would look at Amy Schumer and think there’s no way she’s an introvert but you don’t see her in her day-to-day life. You don’t see her when she’s at home all day and her pajamas writing and reading or you’re watching comedy shows. So that’s something that we have to remember. Absolutely, introverts can do that sort of thing. I myself have enjoyed public speaking and for a while, that was confusing to me as like how can I be an introvert if I like public speaking? But when you start to read and learn about the subject, you realize that introverts can have all sorts of these capacities that we don’t naturally associate with that. And it’s really more about your energy and management and those sorts of things. Yeah, exactly. And communication, I think, communicating in social settings can be like having group conversations. It can be more difficult than getting on stage and delivering a speech or doing stand-up because you’re prepared for that. You might say the same jokes for months or years even. We’re in a conversation. I mean, you don’t know what’s coming and we introverts are known for taking a bit longer to think about what we want to say so that can make those everyday conversations, especially group conversations or conversations with strangers more difficult. Yeah, and I really liked your piece you wrote about. I write better than I speak. Something I really identified particularly with when I was younger. I would get very tongue-tied in social situations and it was just so much easier to lay it out all out on a page and I was like, fluent. I feel really good about this communication but it would struggle in other settings so that it sounds like that was your experience for some time. So on my podcast, I talk a lot about leadership in a lot of ways helping introverts who are interested in being either in leadership or more in the public eye getting out in front and you’re doing a number of these things naturally. I mean, it is leadership, it’s getting out in front and I know one of the topics that you work with introverts on is self-confidence because that can help in that situation and it can help in many situations. How do you support introverts to become more self-confident? Yeah, so I believe in building confidence from the inside out. There is the outer part where it’s like voice, tone, body language, how you can verse, how you commit to a conversation, all of that. But then of course there are the deeper issues like what’s getting in the way of confidence. So try to address any of the limiting beliefs, any of the old stories, maybe about your value, about not being enough, about being weird as an introvert. A lot of times the barrier for people is they think they have to heal completely in order to have the love they want, have the confidence they want. But it’s like no, it’s healing and growing is an ongoing thing. You just have to address your limiting beliefs, for example, enough to be able to move forward and actually take action because you can only do so much sitting in a room journaling. And it believed me as an introvert, myself, I get that there is that desire to just fix everything on your own. But a lot of things you cannot improve or heal on your own. It has to be relative to another person, like you can’t with dating and love for example. Like a lot of times you can’t even see what’s blocking you, you can’t see your fears, you can’t see the skills you’re lacking even until you’re actually dating or you’re until you get to a certain level of intimacy with someone. So yeah, I help introverts to build that confidence from the inside out while also navigating the challenges they may face because of their introversion. Yeah, that’s addressing things at the root or the core needs. And as I imagine self acceptance, self love is a part of that. Definitely. And that’s the great thing about having written my book, The Eresistible Introvert and my other book, The Year of the Introvert. A lot of times when people come to me, they’ve already read my work, they’ve been on the website and so they’re already feeling a bit better about themselves just because they recognize like, oh yeah, I’m just an introvert. There are a lot of people like me, there’s nothing wrong with me. Yeah, that’s really the first step. What I’m hearing is that people have begun this self acceptance part when they come to you so they’ve read your work or they’ve started gotten clued into it. And so I knew you provide coaching as well. Have you worked with aspiring leaders at all, like people are kind of in business or management that sort of thing? Yes, a lot of the clients who come to me for confidence coaching are using it for their career. I don’t, you know, advertise as being like any sort of career coach, but, you know, in order to get the promotion and in order to speak up in meetings, in order to just actually even just make friends at work or just naturally socialize at work. I help people with that. So yeah, like one client I can think of, he was, you know, really hustling, really climbing the corporate ladder. And he came to me for confidence coaching because one aspect of his work involved speaking in front of panels. So he found that the work that we did together helped him to get over his nerves, helped him to speak with more confidence, and also helped him to, you know, manage his energy better. He was also wanting to connect, so to connect with other people. Yeah, sounds like some common things that I’ve encountered working with people in my capacity as a leader, you know, that’s breaking into conversations, managing your energy. Public speaking, these are kind of the greatest hits for, for introverts, I think, in the workplace. Definitely, yes. Do you have, is there an element of progressive exposure or, you know, building skills? And so this notion of building confidence in your approach and what would that look like? Yeah, one thing I always say is we don’t want to, you know, get you so out of your comfort zone, throw you out of your comfort zone. We just want to kind of expand your comfort zone. And I always tell my clients to be mindful of their energy, because I never want them to be in the place where they’re so, over who’s like overwhelmed and exhausted, and then they just want to quit, right? Then they just don’t want to do anything. So that’s why, yeah, I think it does help to have that gradual exposure as your building confidence or building any skill, stretching yourself in any way, changes difficult, otherwise everyone would do it. It’s natural to have some moments where you feel defeated. And so in those moments, you have to be gentle with yourself and remind yourself, hey, I’m going through some big changes. I need to be gentle with myself. This is difficult. And then remind yourself of like everything that you’ve done and how you’re stretching yourself. It’s really important. There is that tendency. I don’t know if it’s unique to introverts, but there is a, when you’re going through that process of change, a tendency to get down on yourself and you know, maybe miss the progress that you’re making, not see all of that, the change that actually is happening. Definitely. Yeah, introverts are known for being really hard on ourselves. That is a transformation killer is being hard on yourself, self-judgment. That actually slows down the transformation process. And we think, we think somehow we are actually helping ourselves by being hard on ourselves. But no, it actually slows things down. So you’re much better off being kind to yourself. Right. And that’s always the trick. I mean, if you do have self-judgment, it’s just a habit of mind. And then you’re like, I did it again. See, I’m justified in judging myself. You know, it becomes a trap, you know, a cycle. And so, apart from so just reminders to be gentle with yourself or encouraging with yourself and having a support system like maybe a coach, I mean, do you have any other tips for people to kind of break out of that self-judgment trap? Yeah, I think one thing that I’ve learned over the years is, you know, talk to someone, leave the house. Just because that can be like the number one block for people. Having someone you talked to about these things, you know, whether it be your goals or things that you’re like difficult emotions, like if the therapist or a coach, but also just like, hey, get out there and like go for a happy hour with your friend or like call a friend or whatever. And oftentimes like that’s just going to get you out of your head and you’re going to like get a different perspective. I mean, I have all kinds of tools that I use with coaching, whether, you know, I use a lot of traditional freedom technique. I don’t know if you’ve used that before, but it’s EFT tapping. A lot of practitioners use it. Tony Robbins uses it. A lot of coaches, it’s a nice, easy, fast way to kind of release negative emotions. They’re a lot of different forgiveness practices. I like to sometimes write a forgiveness letter to myself or to somebody else. All these emotions, all these negative thoughts, they’re just inside us all the time. Not just in our head, but it’s like in our bodies, right? We hold these emotions in our bodies. We need to find a way to release them. Otherwise, of course, we’re going to feel heavy. Of course, we’re going to feel sad. We’re going to feel anxious. We have years and years and years of all these emotions and these beliefs just swirling around inside us. So yeah, we need these tools to release that. Right. Yeah, especially if you’re not in the habit of verbalizing all of your thoughts and your emotions, like an extrovert, then that goes somewhere and it can be stuck and it can take help and additional tools and work to kind of bring that out of yourself. Definitely. And that, if anything, I think that is a great little challenge for yourself. A great way to stretch your comfort zone is share a little bit more. Yeah, that’s some sound advice. It definitely doesn’t come natural to us. I think a lot about the discomfort. And so if you’re an introvert and you do want to be more out in front. And so in some ways, there’s a little bit of your personality that’s in conflict there. And if you’re sufficiently motivated, you’re clear on why you want to do something. You’re going to do it anyway. You’re going to go out into to try to do that thing. You’re going to get up and do the stand up and push yourself. And especially when someone wants to make some changes in their life, there’s going to be discomfort. So how do you talk to your clients about that getting uncomfortable or getting comfort with the discomfort? Visualization is an amazing tool for that because your mind doesn’t really know the difference between something that you’re imagining that you’re visualizing versus something you’re actually experiencing. So if you are feeling anxious about a social event, then if you can visualize yourself like walking in with confidence and feeling a certain way, those kinds of visualizations, they actually do impact how you feel in the real world. Another tool is shifting your state. What I mean by that is you know, you can shift your physiological state by doing power poses. You can shift it by dancing. If I have an important performance, I will actually put on some hip-hop music and dance it out in my apartment. And believe me, it actually makes a huge difference. I feel more in my body. I feel more energized and confident on stage. That’s great. I’ve heard some of those. I think breath work can really shift your state, your state of mind as well. Some people dunk their heads in ice water. They’re whole bodies. Cold, plunging is such a big thing. Cold plunging. Cold plunging. Cold plunging. Yeah. But the breath work and the like there’s things that you want to like kind of stimulate your nervous system, like get excited, be energizing and there’s things where you want to you want to calm your nervous system where you want to overcome over simulation for introverts, you definitely should have like a core practice like that. Because in our modern world, it’s just so easy to be overstimulated. I have started going to a meditation center and so we sit and we just meditate silently. And then in the middle, we’ll do a walking meditation. We’ll get up and walk for like 10 minutes and we’ll sit. And I’m just like, well, you know what? There’s no way I’m going to meditate for an hour by myself. I just don’t have the discipline. Afterwards they have refreshments and people can chat. So it’s like also a good way to meet people as well if you’re an introvert who wants to connect. But I find doing that the next day, I’m like so much more creative. Everything’s easier. I’m so much sharper. And so like it just, it shows how important having these kind of practices are. Totally agree. It’s been transformational in my own life. And yeah, the effects are carry over in every aspect of your life and the next day and the next. And honestly, it becomes addictive where like if I didn’t have my meditation fix in the morning, I’m not as calm, I’m not as centered and sharp. Mm-hmm, definitely. Yeah. That’s an excellent point that, you know, just a reminder that as an introvert, your mind runs hot in a way. Like you’re more responsive to stimulation and that’s kind of at the root of a lot of your experiences and that these practices lower that general level. And so you have more resources to react to stimuli and whether it’s, you know, you’re stepping on a stage or there’s, you know, a confrontation with a friend or a coworker or just some kind of unpleasant surprise, you just have more resources to react in that situation. For sure, yeah. I mean, you definitely make better decisions when you’re meditating. And I will share, you know, something that I share with my dating clients and my confidence clients is the three, the three initial steps to connect. Number one is commit. Go up to the person that you commit to the conversation from the beginning. So not committing would be like scuttling up to them sideways and being like, hey, up. There is just this tendency to do that because you don’t think the person wants to talk to you. But when you commit, you face them or you mirror their body language, you’re clear in your tone and you are committed to the conversation with your energy. Actually, sorry, I reverse the thing. The second thing is to commit the first thing is intention. So going in with intention, what is my intention for this event and this conversation? That is not super self-focused. So for example, my intention is to show appreciation. My intention is to practice like one connection skill. And if I’ve done that, then I feel good. And so when you have these more outward focused intentions, you’re going to be less nervous because you’re not so like focused on, oh, like, did they want to talk to me? Do I seem weird? You’re just focused on your intention. And then to actually start a conversation, there are many ways you can do it. But one really solid way is with an observation. And sometimes a question can put people, like, just put their wall up a little bit more if they’re not expecting it. Whereas an observation, it’s almost like you’re saying, hey, I’m just like putting this observation out there. You can respond or not or you can, you know, say what you want, but I’m not like directly, like, hey, what are you doing, sort of thing? That sounds like a good framework. It sounds like a taste of the type of support that you could provide, introverted clients through your practice. I’m so glad that you’re out there supporting people. People definitely need help. And it’s great what you’ve done in putting so much of this information out to help introverts understand themselves better and help themselves feel less alone. So thanks for all the work you’ve done on that. Yeah, my pleasure. I love working with introverts. They’re so fun to work with. So, and it’s been great chatting with you. Yeah, likewise. Thanks so much for taking the time and being on my show. 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