He Told His Coach the Truth — It Changed Everything

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You’ve been a senior executive and angel investor, which is another measure of your success. More recently, executive coach. Is that right? I coach pretty well exclusively entrepreneurs, but yeah, it’s a business coach. Often, I do a lot of facilitation work with entrepreneurs in their senior leadership team, which gets into the whole dynamic. What’s interesting is some of those people in relation to your podcast is not everyone is an extrovert, even at a partner level, senior leadership level. How I work with those teams and those people, I’ve had to learn because I’m principally an extrovert, although I’ve also learned as I’ve grown and done a lot of personal growth that I have more introvert in me than I realized. I’ve had to get better at working with teams where that’s part of the dynamic. Excellent. I love to get in there and it’s great. Field proof that people rise to the highest levels of senior leadership as introverts as well as extroverts. Yes, indeed. Another thing that really I was drawn to is that you very courageously spoken about being sober for 15 years and the fact that you coach people, entrepreneurs who are facing similar challenges. Yes. Whether they’re still active in their addiction or they’ve got some recovery, again, operating, I think especially, the more senior you get and then especially I think for entrepreneurs, there’s extra societal pressure. If you’re an entrepreneur and a business owner and you get invited to networking events, there’s always going to be sponsors who want to sponsor a free bar because they want access to you, the CEO, the entrepreneur. How do you navigate that? How do you navigate if you have any product or service that’s in a complicated kind of sale where multiple people at your prospect organization must be involved? It’s not uncommon that the CEO has to fly down and do the closing dinner thing which can often involve a lot of booze. Yes. Again, as a sober person, do you operate in that environment where there’s this really high business societal expectation around drinking? Those are some of the issues that I help people navigate as well as the day-to-day issues of being in recovery and still having high stress position and it’s be clear, building and running businesses generally high stress. How do we cope with that? What do we do instead? That’s right. That ties into this whole aspect of change and typically people who are going into a position like this starting a business or running a business. These are just very stressful situations and most of us aren’t naturally wired. Our nervous systems aren’t wired to be able to handle all of that and so you have to adapt and develop the capacities to meet those those situations. I think for all of your listeners, regardless of what their position is and what they’re doing, life has stressors that’s part of being human to varying degrees. One of the things I work with clients on is what do you do to build your resiliency? My former coach Kevin Lawrence has this framework where he talks about three parts of your life, so career finances, business, then life and relationships. That’s typically your spouse, your kids, your friends. But especially for high performing people but really for all people, there’s this piece in the middle which is self. Particularly high performing, I’ll speak mostly for high performing individuals because I’m one and that’s mostly what I work with, highly driven people. They’re really bad at looking after themselves. I help people often just rediscover like one of those things that really renew you, that give you energy, that lets you have a time out and how do we put more of that intentionally back into your life? And so finally, at least in the West, we have this real issue with being selfish. And even sometimes when I’m doing things that are just for me, I have people around me, well you’re being so selfish. Well, yeah, I am. And this is what I need right now. Right? Like it’s no apologies needed. Like I’m worn out, I’ve been working too hard, I need to have this. And it’s taken me a long time to get to that point where I’m okay doing that. Like I’m a people-pleaser, this idea of doing things that are just for myself is actually being quite a difficult piece of personal growth. You know, my former coach, Kevin Lawrence, also talked about so this model of making sure like when you plan on a quarter, like what are you going to do for your career and business? What’s one major thing you want to achieve in your life relationships? But like what’s at least one thing you’re going to do in this quarter to like build your resiliency, go on a trip, like jump out of a plane, go race a car or for me, go sailing. And he talks about a pendulum. So if we are of service to others, you know, and really at the extreme, we are completely self-less. And then the pendulum swings back the other way where we’re completely self-ish. And like most pendulums, like it needs to swing back and forth and ebb with what’s going on in our life. But if we are completely self-less, we will burn out. There’ll be nothing of us left. I mean, and this is what happened to me with alcohol, right? Was it took over my life? And there was nothing of me left towards the end until I got into recovery, right? And could recover myself really was what was most important. And then by doing that, there was more of me to be available for others. Right. That’s really the key. And whether it’s people who are pouring themselves into their work or you know, they’re struggling with addiction from the outside that feels like that feels very selfish or looks very selfish. And but there’s not going to be anything left of you for other people unless you are taking care of that that part of yourself. Yeah. And like in my case, I was a super high-performing alcoholic. So I still probably was about 80% there. But there was a 20% of me that wasn’t present. That wasn’t there. That was completely consumed with where am I going to get my next drink. And you know, I remember one Saturday afternoon, you know, and it’s like we’re the playground with the kids and everyone’s having fun. And I’m like making up some excuse for why we need to get home because it’s now six o’clock, which the only reason we needed to get home is so I could start drinking. That’s it. And that’s really being to me, the hold into that addiction is I’m showing these behaviors that are not who really I am and who I want to be. Right. Like we could have spent another hour at the playground. Although by that point when we got the kids home, they would have been so hungry. Would have would have been a little miserable. And that’s probably maybe that’s the excuse that I used. But I mean, it wasn’t really thinking about the kids in the family. It was really about getting home and being getting access to my booze. So how does that conversation go? So you’re working with a high-performing entrepreneur who’s as a similar. How often are they recognizing or wanting to get out of that versus potentially needing guiding in that direction? And there’s not just alcoholism, addiction to drugs, but there’s workaholism. There’s like, right? So it shows up in lots of different ways. For any given client, I try and just stay curious and I just try and gently or sometimes not so gently, depending on the circumstance in the person, shine some light on that behavior and whether it’s serving them well. At the end of the day, like, I can’t get anyone sober. I can’t keep anyone sober. All I can do is share my experience, strengthen hope and let them come to a decision that what they’re doing isn’t working for them. People come into recovery from alcohol. You know, they want to do it because their parents, they let their parents down or they want to do it for their spouse. So they want to do it for their kids. But the truth is that I’ve never seen anyone get sober unless they want it for themselves. They have to get to that point that they really want it for themselves. And I think whether it’s other isms, that are, I mean, at the end of the day, they’re all coping mechanisms to hide some aspect of our feelings. So there’s some aspect of our feelings that we’re not comfortable with usually or more typically on an unconscious level. It’s not like I was picking up the drink and saying, oh, I don’t want this negative feeling. I mean, I had to spend years in recovery to figure out that’s really what I was doing. And listen to a lot of other people, my recovery has been in 12-step recovery. So I’m being to probably 2500 meetings. I’ve heard a lot of people share. And you know, the commonality is not our drinking history or our careers. What’s common is the feelings. Yeah. Feelings of inadequacy, feelings of not being good enough. My big one of my biggest fears, I’m not good enough. Right? So what do you do? What do you do if your biggest fears isn’t good enough? Well, one of the things you become an overachiever or one of the things is you become a people pleaser. If I do enough stuff, you’ll like me. And then I’ll be good. I’ll feel like I’m good enough. But that’s a never-ending spiral. Like because if that’s good enough, then like, you know, I got to do like twice as much next time. You know, a lot of my growth in 12-step recovery and personal growth is just like I am good enough as I am two-day. And you’re a human doing your best and I’m a human doing my best and that doesn’t make me better than you or worse than you. And it doesn’t make you better than me or worse than me. And you know, back to kind of the topic of your podcasts, like again, like whether you’re an extrovert or an introvert does not make you better than me or worse than me. It’s just we show up in the world differently and how can we help each other to show up at our best, being who we are. Right. I’m really curious about the point of change and what brings people around because there’s and I love the way you frame that all we’re all we’re coping with these emotions that seem overwhelming to us and on a conscious level. And there is something that has to change in the person for them to get to that point where it’s not just they want it for themselves. They, in fact, feel like they deserve it in some level because I think part of some of those feelings is that you don’t at some level feel that you deserve better. You don’t deserve to change because of of all the these negative feelings. I’ve said a few things but like what have you observed is that point of change for those people? My observation is that point of change is different for every individual. You know, I can only talk about my point of change. So I was a daily drinker for over 20 years and essentially for that entire time I was in denial about my drinking. Complete, utter denial. You know, and I’d have typical kind of alcoholic behaviors like I drank enough that, you know, I’d go to the closest liquor store on Monday but then on Wednesday when I needed more, I’d go to a different liquor store because if I went to the same liquor store while the people at the till might think that I was in alcoholic. So I’m like having this behavior where I’m going to different liquor stores through the week because of what people might think about me, not self-identifying, well maybe you are like just completely denial. Like even knowing I’m doing it for that reason and I’m still in denial and like that’s just how powerful addictions are. And for me, I got to a point where I literally got sick and tired of being sick and tired of like being on this endless, endless hamster wheel that had me like completely beaten down. And then you know, my drinking was always kind of more later in the afternoon and then drinking till I, you know, get a certain level of inebriation and then hold it there till I go to bed and pass out. And so you know towards the end, you know, it’s like four o’clock’s the first drink then it’s, you know, it’s five and then it’s four and then it’s three thirty and then it’s three and I just like got to that point where you know, I was sick and tired and I’ll let your listeners know, you know, an amazing coach came into my life and I worked with that coach for nine years but it took 18 months of working with that coach to like clear everything else off the table. So we got me reestablished my career which is why I hired him because angel investing was extremely unfulfilling for me because I didn’t, was not torquing against people at my level is kind of the bottom line and just was not fulfilling. And I needed to get back in the game and get back and working with people that could torque at my level which I eventually did. So after 18 months it’s kind of we cleared everything else off and then like the elephant in the room is sitting there like I just couldn’t be ignored anymore. And that’s what took me into recovery and you know, I tell people like when I came into recovery, I had a job, I had a house, I had a spouse, I had kids, I had two cars and today, you know, I have a job while I have my career in coaching and facilitation. I have the same spouse next week will be married for 43 years. I have the same kids except I now have two grandkids and I have a house and two cars. So if you were to look at me from the outside and say David like nothing’s changed. But what you don’t see is the person on the inside today is a completely different person than walked into the rooms of recovery you know a decade and a half ago. And that internal journey and that personal growth had been tremendous like that story is you know, all of that is very, in fact we can have these conversations like even talk about many of the things we’ve already talked about so far, I wouldn’t have been capable of when I first came into recovery. Yeah. Yeah, it’s quite an achievement. I’m all of it, you know, including up to including your 40th wedding anniversary. Yeah, that’s fantastic. I’m celebrating next week my 25th. So awesome. Yeah, and you know, in today’s world like to get to 25 years is still like a miracle. For sure. Yeah, no, it’s yeah, and then I think it’s I you know, I joke, you know, I can thank therapy for that. I’ve you know, my wife and I joke we have had effectively three marriages because each time you know, it was like we had to fix it or move on and so we just keep dunding to it and you know, we’re happier than ever. Congratulations to having the courage and doing the work to you know, fix it. I’d call it change. Yeah, it’s right. Yeah, and to grow together. To grow together. Right. Yeah. Which is hard as when work. Like it’s hard. And I believe worth it. Agreed. When you started working with that coach, you know, they said you said you had this 18 months of intense work. Did you have any, was it, do you feel in retrospect there was any part of you that that thought it was setting down the path that were it eventually led you? Zero none. Absolutely not. I never would have hired him if I thought that that was going to be the outcome. Because I wasn’t ready. Like, and that wasn’t why I hired him because my career was completely unfulfilling and I met him in an event and he made me more uncomfortable than I’m being in three or four years. I had tears in the corners of my eyes from just a couple of questions he asked me. But Kevin also is my kind of person like all you’re all in or you’re all out. So like our first coaching session was on my 50th birthday August 9th 2007. And with Kevin, like your initial coaching session was two eight hour days. Like, yeah, all in. That’s all in. Yeah. For both of us. Like, that’s a commitment. So when I got to the point, you know, I’ve admitting to him I had a drinking problem. I also knew we had worked long enough together and built enough trust that I knew once I told him I knew he would never let me off the hook. I didn’t know what it would look like. I didn’t know. I didn’t know a lot of stuff. I just knew that once it was out, there was no taking it back. And as it turned out, he had a recreational home in Washington state and a lot of summers there, you know, sitting around the campfire, he’d met a couple of people with like 20 years in 12 step recovery. And he’s he doesn’t have a drinking problem. But he’s an infinitely curious coach. So he’d had a lot of conversations with people about the recovery and how they came in and you know, how it worked and for them. And so when I showed up with the drinking problem, he knew what had a coach mean. He had a solution, which I didn’t learn probably for five or six years after I got sober that he had this experience. And then it finally, it came out in a conversation we had. I made a commitment to him. That was a Tuesday. January 27, 2009, and I made the commitment to go to a meeting by that Friday. And then being the overachiever that I am later that afternoon, I was going downtown for a networking event. I knew it would end about eight. So I went online and I looked and lo and behold, there was going to be a meeting a quarter of a block off the road. I’d be driving down to go home at eight three. Like the universe meant it to happen. So I walked into that meeting, took me years before I admitted how scared I was to go to that meeting. And a month or so later, I made it my what’s called a home group, which is the group you commit to being a service of and showing up every week. And I was there this week, same group. And one, two, three, there was at least three people in the room on Tuesday night who were there the night that I walked in. That’s awesome. That have been there to witness my entire journey. And that I can’t explain how special a feeling that is to have those people in my life and to still have them being a witness to my sobriety. It’s really beautiful. Just thinking about the steps that led you to that path. And it sounds like, that relationship with the coach was this crucial bit. You had established a strong bond of trust to him. This was somebody who you trusted to hold you accountable and keep you honest. Yes. And because the program I practice at the spiritual program, I’ve really come to really believe that the universe put Kevin in my past. So I could get sober. And what a gift that’s been. And recently I celebrated my 16 years of sobriety. And here locally in Vancouver, we do that by what we call having a cake, which means mostly that I’m asked to share more extensively about what it was like, what happened, what it’s like now. And I bring a cake. And Kevin is a super busy guy, but we’re still in contact. And every year I invite him to come to my cakes. And he comes about every four years or so. And this year he was there. And we had a nice conversation about that initial day and remit it a bit. And he had an interview with entrepreneurs as well. And in fact, I just did an interview with him. It’s going to come out next month. So to having that reconnection point and it is just really, really special to me. And I imagine that’s got to be part of your inspiration and getting into coaching yourself and seeing the profound effect someone can you can have as a coach on somebody else’s life. Yeah. So I launched my coaching for 10 years ago this month. And you’re 100% on. I decided to become a business coach because I wanted to give to entrepreneurs the gifts that Kevin had given to me, both in business and in life and in sobriety. Now it took me a long time practicing as a coach before I decided to go public about being an alcoholic and in recovery. And as far as I can tell, like I’m the only business coach that I found that specializes in that area. There might be others. And hey, if that’s what you do, I would love to hear from you. They’ll be able to compare notes. And even if entrepreneurs are, people ask me are they more prone to being alcoholics? And I’ve looked at lots of research and no one knows. But roughly 10% of the population are alcoholic or have alcohol use disorder. So even a 10% of entrepreneurs have alcohol use disorder. That’s a lot of people. So you know, I’m thank you for having me on your podcast and letting me talk so much about this particular topic because you know, this is my purpose in life is to share my experience, strength and hope and let people know. And whether you’re an entrepreneur, no matter what your role is, what you do in life, if you struggle with alcohol, I want you to know that there is a solution. And in my experience, you can’t solve it on your own. You have to reach out for help. In my case, it was Coach Kevin. I mean, thoughts that meetings are free. You can look them up online. There’s an app for it. You know, go, there’ll be people who will be very, very happy to be able to help you. So that’s like the overreaching message. I really want your listeners to take away. Yeah, absolutely. I’m really glad to amplify that message. You know, I’ve done some thinking about this too. And I’ve written about it. And I do, I think what you say is right, whether even if you are not struggling with alcohol addiction or, you know, a more minor form of it, even, I think the mechanism, the way human struggle with these types of things is it’s all the same. It’s the same, we have the same kind of underlying fear as an issue that we drive with. And I’m also a believer I’ve benefited from having a coaching relationship who, who really held me accountable and whom I trusted enough to do the personal change work for myself. That’s allowed me to, to be very different and show up very differently in the world. And, and I think there’s something unique about a coaching relationship that can help you bridge the gap. If there’s ever something that you are struggling with, you feel like you can’t, you know, you don’t, the person you are today cannot see the path to getting to where you want to go or feeling better or having a difference in your life. That that is, that’s a very viable option. And there are people out there who can help you. Yes. Totally. And, and the flip side of that. So I’ve had a coach now consistently for, you know, like 17 years. So I talk about like doing things that are selfish, like it are just for me. So having a coach is one of the most selfish things I do. Like it is 100% for me. It’s not for my clients. It’s not for my spouse. It’s not for my kids. It’s for me. And what a gift that is. Like to have that one thing in my life that, you know, and to have that person that I know is 100% in my corner. And, you know, for your listeners, if we talk more in the corporate environment and, you know, growing, like if you can’t afford a coach, find a mentor. Like again, find someone else. So you’re not trying to do it all on your own. And you have someone else’s experience, like I’m celebrating 10 years of the publication of my book, Wind in Your Sales. Which was a book for bi entrepreneurs, for entrepreneurs. And the reason I wrote it was like, I drove into a lot of potholes. And it’s like, you know, you can drive into those potholes, but maybe you don’t want to drive into the ones I drove into. Like go learn from my experience, at least avoid those potholes. There’s lots more. You’ll still drive into lots. That’s why I wrote the book was, because I’m wearing a lot of scar tissue. And maybe you don’t have to wear all of it. And it’s the same by getting a mentor. It’s like lean into their scar tissue. It doesn’t mean they’re right about everything, but it’s that, you know, you can listen to their experience. You can get them to reflect how they see what they’ve experienced in life into your situation. And again, you don’t have to take everything they say. You can take everything they say with a grain of salt, but at least it, it can open you up and shine light into corners that you never even thought of. So you’ve done a lot of that as a coach. And I wanted to ask you also about how you help entrepreneur’s because entrepreneurs have a profound effect on the people who work for them, the CEOs in general. They they established the culture, they established the norms. And these are it’s, you know, the structures, how people’s day to day lives are organized. And I think before we spoke about how culture is driven the values. So how do you work with your entrepreneurs to establish healthy values or values that are that work for them and for their people? Well, usually, and like I work a lot with owner founders, I’ve started business and growing it. And my experience is that the company usually has the values that come from the founding owners or partners. And maybe a couple of critical first hires, especially if they were quite senior. So the first part is, are they open to talking about the culture? Right? So we have to get past that one. Then it’s like encouraging them to go on a discovery process. Like people have this idea of like all truest, like value should be altruistic or good or, you know, for the betterment of the world. Well, there’s some cultures where to be in that company, you need to be an asshole. That’s the culture of the company. And I don’t judge that. It’s not the kind of people I like to work with, but I don’t judge it. I mean, there’s some really big, really powerful companies that have got built with cultures like that. So first of all, can we go on a discovery process, which, you know, in good to great talks about it, there’s a couple exercises. One is if you’re going to go to Mars, who, who in your team would you take with you? Or another one, another way to ask the question is who would you rehire in a heartbeat? And why? And what did they, what characteristics do they demonstrate? And from that, like going this discovery process, these are our values. Now, you may want to over time change some of them. All of that probably will require changing you changing, and it may require you changing some of the people in the company. And then having discovered the values, you have to make a decision as a senior leader, whether you’re going to actually live them. Because employees, you can write all this stuff down and put it on a wall and talk to people about it. And, you know, raw, raw, raw. But I tell you, every employee is going to watch every move you make. And if you violate those values, they’re like, oh, well, that one does account. So you have to really deeply live those values. So the work I do is around a lot of stuff from Vern Harnish, his two books, Rockefeller Habits, and scaling up. And he, in both of those books, he talks a lot about culture. And that’s because those cultural values really define people’s behaviors. Like people behave certain way when they have these values. And when you have a lot of people who have similar behaviors, now that the personnel is going to be different, their skills can be different. But like their straight shooters, they tell the truth. Like I have one client that’s one of their core values. And so what happens if you bring someone into the organization higher, someone who’s not a straight shooter, like usually they get ejected like a virus. Because they’re just not consistent. And when everyone’s behaviors are aligned, you need to communicate less. And people to operate better together and achieve more because the behaviors are consistent with each other. Even still leaning, again, I want to make sure we’re not talking like you, I think, might have talked at the start of the conversation or maybe before we started recording, about a firm, who hired everyone who liked a certain sports team. Like that’s not a behavior. That’s not like anything actually. You know, we’re looking at things that are significantly deeper. And then I do a lot of coaching with entrepreneurs around difficult conversations. And all of us avoid difficult conversations to one extent or another. And then if you’re like me and a people, please are like you really avoid those conversations. But now as a coach, I am much more comfortable having difficult conversations with my clients. And you know, and those difficult conversations are either pointing out like a value, you know, a value transgression where people are not operating away that it’s consistent with the values of the company. Or the accountability discussion, like you’ve assigned them a task. They’re supposed to do something by certain time. They don’t do it. And you know, we tend to, I’m Canadian. So like we apologize before we’ve even stepped out of the door. Because that’s our culture. But that didn’t work well in the business environment. I mean, you need to hold people accountable. And if they don’t like you for it, that’s okay. Like, and we think it’s not kind. Well, I’m going to call this person on their ship. Well, I would argue that the, that’s the not calling them on their stuff is the most unkind thing you can do. Because they have no opportunity to learn. They have no opportunity to know what’s working. What’s not working. They have no opportunity to grow and be a better self in the future. Because you haven’t given them the feedback that they need. So the most kind thing you can do is hold people accountable. Yeah, that’s really true. That’s a deeper, a more true level of kindness. Yes. But I have this conversation with clients who all I want to be kind. Well, you can have the conversation in a kind way. Like you don’t have to blast them. You don’t have to make them wrong or bad. You do have to point out that this is the expectation. This is what was supposed to happen. You can be curious with them about why it didn’t. But you still need to hold them accountable. Right. You can, you can deliver an unpleasant truth without being unkind. Yeah. Or, yeah. So sometimes people talk about being nice versus being kind. I think kind is, is really doing what’s best for the person in the individual and nice is kind of smoothing the surface. Not disturbed things. Yeah. That sounds like great advice. And I think we talked about this before. Not every company is going to be a great fit for your personality. And so for people who are maybe quieter or you don’t like people who are assholes. You like, you’re kind of more into kindness. There are going to be some companies and cultures that are just not a good fit for you. Yeah. And my youngest son is currently applying for looking for new jobs and going through that HR hiring process. He’s a software developer. So it’s pretty hard, you know, a process. And you know, what I suggested to him. So we get into this hiring process, especially when we’re younger in our career, but I think at almost any stage where we tend to think like we have to jump through every hoop of the hiring process of the business we want to join. And I’d like to encourage people, well, this is a two way street. Like if you’re good enough to, you know, be hired by them, you know, they’re lucky enough to get you. And so it’s okay for you to have questions about their culture and questions about how they work. And if they don’t want to answer any of those, well, in some ways, that’s an answer. Like, and is that the kind of organization that you want to work for? Because sometimes when you’re going to a new firm, especially a bigger firm, it can be very hard from the outside looking in to determine what the culture is. And then you’re at the end of this rapid fire hiring process where you feel like you don’t get to ask questions. Right? You can very easily kind of get into that. Whereas I’ve helped people with career transitions. And I’m like, you know, can you find other people who work there that you can talk to? Can write? I mean, go and LinkedIn, like find other ways. But you don’t want to go and work there for three months. And then like, oh, my God, this was so awful. And it doesn’t look good on your resume. Like you’re moving firms, but I mean, you’re moving for the right reasons. It’s a terrible cultural fit. But then people start looking at you like, oh, you don’t have commitment. Well, yeah, because of the limited commitment to, you know, emotional crap I’m going to put up with. So it’s striking that balance. But again, in some ways, I think people, when they want to go find a new role, research the culture of the company before you even apply. Think about that cultural fit for you. That’s right. And there’s notion that your performance, you’re going to perform better in a place that that is a better fit for you. You’re going to get along with people more. You’re going to be show up better and communicate more joy. You know, a lot of my work with entrepreneurs is like, what gets what gets you to jump out of bed with joy in the morning, looking forward to work. Or if they’re burned out for work, then I asked them not for other things in their life. But we really want life. Why not choose a life where you want to bounce out of bed in the morning, you’re looking forward to it and you’re not dreading it. Sure, there are always periods in our career where things are going on in a business or you’re overstressed, where it’s not as much fun. But what we want is the trend line and the overreaching experience to be positive. And to be get clear in ourselves, is this a little blip in the road? Or is this like a bigger trend for the company? If it’s a bigger trend, it’s more worrisome. And if it’s a small trend, then what if anything can I do to change this trajectory today? Like I love coaching clients. I don’t know if trouble getting out of bed in the morning, going, doing my workout and getting ready to be my best for the clients I’m going to work with today. I already had a call just before years with a client of mine. That’s great that you found that work for you and really motivating you. Yeah, yeah, totally. I’m thinking about my audience, people maybe, really at any level, kind of aspiring to move ahead, but perhaps feeling stuck, what advice would you have for people in that situation? Don’t wait. Like how can you show leadership capability in your current role? Like how can you do things? How can you take on things that show you’re ready for that next role? My son works for Lulu Lemon. Their process, you have to essentially have worked in your next role for a year before you were formally given that role. Like they really test drive you and make sure you’re ready for it, which I think is a very powerful thing to do. I really think I give Lulu Lemon a lot of credit. It’s always been interesting to me is when a crisis arises in a business, you see, you know, as a senior leader, I look to see who, who bubbles for the top in, in the crisis. And often it’s like the person you least expect. And that’s the person to put more time and energy into developing. Like because that’s a person that is willing to take some risks and rise above and show up. Imagine there was a crisis. How could you rise to that? How can you take that learning and apply it to your work today? You have a lot of power to demonstrate to those that you work for that you’re ready to go to the next level. And if you’re just path of and wait for it, well, you might wait a long time. Yeah, it’s cool. Lulu Lemon makes that a formal policy because that it’s similar to advice that I’ve given before is just like beat, you know, actually go ahead and do the role. Look for those opportunities to to start doing it. And you’re like, look, I’m already doing it. And you know, then your boss can turn around. Look, they’re already doing it. It’s that sounds like what what you’re saying. Yeah. And so they’re ready. Yeah. Like it’s it’s it’s clear. The evidence is right there. It’s exactly. David, this is really cool. I wanted to give you a chance if people want to know more about you in your career, where can they look online? Way is to visit my website, which is coach djgrir.com. That’s coach d is in David j’s and james grir.com. And I want your listeners to know on the top left corner of every page of my website is my phone number and my email address. And I offer free one hour of coaching to anyone that wants it. So all you have to do is reach out. And if you don’t want to use my email or my phone number, this contact form too. So you can you can use that either way, just reach out to me and and we’ll schedule something. And I’ll help you with whatever challenges in front of you right now. That’s very generous, just like you’ve been very generous in sharing your life story and your advice with me here today. So thank you so much, David. Oh, thank you and thank you for having me. Taxes was feeling so stuck. 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