Rewire Public Speaking Anxiety: From a Panic Attack on Live TV to the Keynote Stage

Greg (2): have you ever practiced a talk dozens of times, walked into the room and just felt your body run away with you? Your heart races, your hands start to shake, and there’s that quiver in your voice. That’s public speaking anxiety, and for many introverted leaders, it’s a loop that quietly decides which rooms you allow yourself to be in and which ones you avoid my guest today spent her 20s buckling under pressure like that in Broadway auditions, once had a full panic attack on live national television, but rebuilt herself into someone who keynotes conferences and runs a startup using tools you can steal today Welcome to The Introverted Leader. It’s a podcast helping introverted leaders embrace your underrated quiet strengths so you can get promoted and start earning what you deserve. I’m Greg Weinger. I have over 25 years of leadership experience, and yes, I am an introvert My guest today is Tamara Lane. She’s a former on-air correspondent turned startup founder, and this is the first time she’s shared on any podcast how she rewired her brain to speak in front of people without losing her body to the panic. Before we start, I made a free masterclass for introverted leaders. It’s called Why Everything You’ve Been Told About Getting Ahead as an Introvert is Wrong. 30 minutes. It features the three moments that decide whether you advance or stay where you are, and one practice to start this week. Get started at gweinger.com/masterclass. That’s G-W-E-I-N-G-E-R.com/masterclass, one word. All right, let’s get into it All right, Tamara, welcome to the show Hi. Thank you for having me Yeah, so good to have you. I’ll kick you off with, a softball question here. Do you consider yourself an introvert, extrovert, or other? Now it would be other. I- my natural tendency is to be an introvert that I’ve had to train to be an extrovert All right. Can you describe what does this training program look like? Well, my training was the school of hard knocks, right? I was, began my life as a ballerina and a dancer, training and, you know, it’s something that you, you train.and then you have to get up on stage, right? And you have to do it in front of people, and it’s a terrifying experience. as I was older, in my 20s, and trying to figure out what was next in my career, I was trying to be on Broadway, and I was going for roles where you had to sing. and it was like, that was catastrophic for me. I would be panicked before going in to sing.I would practice with a coach. and I would have everything down perfectly, and I would go in, and I would just buckle. I could not sing in front of people. Just couldn’t do it. and so I just said, “It’s not for me. I can’t do it. Can’t do it.” and then when I, was like later in my career as I was, working in documentaries, I had the opportunity to then become an on-air correspondent, and that’s where that training really started to hone in because, it’s incredibly nerve-wracking, and so I was practicing with my friends. I was figuring out how to do this, how to speak in front of people, how to speak to a camera. It’s just not something that’s natural for everybody. so I had the practice of every day figuring out how to get better and better and better until then it became something that I’m incredibly comfortable with, right? So getting on and speaking to you, I can do, but then I still have to practice. I was just the keynote speaker at a conference. I still stand… I practice, I practice, I practice. I get myself into the zone. I talk myself through it. I use my coaching tools, like all of those things. So it’s a skill that I have repeatedly, practiced and trained for, is to be in front of people, to speak, to be able to lead. Yeah. It’s very validating for me to speak to you and hear your experience because it mirrors how I’m personally wired so much. It seems like I, like you, am somehow attracted to these places of visibility, these situations. You were trying to be on Broadway. That’s a very visible kind of place. Even though you backed away from that, you still came forward and found this other situation where you could be more visible as maybe it’s something a little bit more comfortable. And underneath that is sort of this undercurrent I’ve always had. It doesn’t matter if I’m in front of a stage of 1,500 people or five people, there’s this inner flutter that seems to always be there, and you can kinda manage through tools. Yeah, it’s funny because, I’m so blessed to have been an on-air correspondent and a journalist and do the work that I did. That path wasn’t something I was looking for. I was very comfortable behind the camera doing documentaries and working behind the scenes, and then I got presented the opportunity, and I’ve always been very keen on if you’re presented, you know, the universe brings you an opportunity, you say yes. And I did, and that took my life in a completely different trajectory. But it was different than what I had expected it to be. I think that that’s something that’s really interesting and important to… That when I reflect back as to like I wasn’t seeking out being an on-air correspondent. I got presented a phenomenal opportunity that then changed my life Yeah. Well, there’s some people who might think that’s not an accident, It true it’s perspective. so and you’re comfortable talking about this, I, I recently spoke about having a panic attack on my episode. It reminds me of Dan Harris, who famously had a panic attack on air and speaks about it publicly. And, could you describe, your experience with those sort of feelings? Yeah. So I, you know, I spoke about kind of like when I was trying to be on Broadway and that, and how nerve, , racked I would be getting up on stage and, and singing. Like that didn’t go away. There was something in my brain that I couldn’t figure out how to switch off when I then moved on to being on-air correspondent. And so before, going on air, I would always get like so nervous. Like my body would, have a reaction just every time kind of no matter what I did. And I could control it enough for most of the time, and then all of a sudden one day I was on set and I thought I was having a seizure. My whole body just started shaking. I was like, “I’m either having a seizure or I’m having a stroke. There is something completely wrong. I can’t talk,” right? My heart was racing, and I kind of got off stage, or off the set, and I was like, “What just happened?” And I went and I talked to a doctor, and they were like, “You had a panic attack.” I was like, “Oh my God.” So my body, the stress and the anxiety and the panic about that had, carried to the point where all of a sudden my body just said, “No more. No more. Like, you are not dealing with this.” And so I had to go start talking with a therapist to help me talk through how, how do I fix this problem. And it was probably one of the best things I did in my life because it is amazing how these things that manifest in your body, the stress can then just overtake you. And interesting enough, so when I was talking to a friend of mine about this, I met with a friend, I was like, you won’t believe what happened, like this is what happened on set.” He was like, “I’m friends with Dan Harris. You should go meet Dan Harris.” And so I did. I went to the studios, and I sat with him. He gave me his book, signed. And I, I read through it so f- I was like, “Oh my gosh, I’m not alone. Like this is a real thing.” And so I went and I started working with a therapist to give me these tools to, rewire my brain and how I approached w- Mhm. situations that brought me anxiety and stress. And that i- is something now that I carry with me. I, when I got up and I did a keynote this week, did not have a panic attack, right? And so there are these things that you can do rewiring the way that you think and approach a situation that can transform, the anxieties that your brain creates going into it, with, especially with like public speaking. Yeah. And first off, thank you so much for speaking about this. It’s courageous and it’s so impactful. It sounds like Dan did this for you. It’s so impactful to hear about other people having similar feelings, similar reactions ‘cause it normalizes it and helps you to understand that this is just normal, this is part of life and that there are ways to work through it I, I like to think about it this way too, adding onto what you said, which is yes, and if, you only encounter those things when you’re pushing yourself to do something more or something challenging or something that is a goal or a desire. It’s when you put yourself in those situations, So that’s why, you have to give yourself a little bit of grace that, you are growing, you are doing something more, and therefore you’re going to run into challenges that then you have to be able to use tools and rethink how you approach them Right. And it, you’re stretching yourself, and you wouldn’t be doing that if you weren’t trying to grow. Could you share a little bit about your personal toolkit? Like, what sort of tools do you turn to when you’re gonna go on stage? Now I’m a meditation. I, I’m a, I’m a meditation and a breathwork, girl. I mean, every day, all day it feels like. So when I was working at, post my panic attack, I would write down the scenario that I thought I was going into, and then I would rewrite that scenario in the most positive way possible of the outcome, right? And you would see two distinct… it’s almost like realities didn’t match, right? The anxiety that you’re projecting onto a situation that causes, you know, this anxiety or the panic attack, is completely created in your head because usually that’s not the situation that you’re actually walking into. And so when you rethink it and you say it out loud in the best possible manner, then you are creating the situation that you’re walking into, and you’re controlling it a little bit more. So that was what I first did, which was really powerful to help me see that what I was thinking didn’t necessarily match the reality, and so I was projecting the worst-case scenario before something even happened, which was then causing the worst-case scenario. you’re rehearsing the worst outcome. Exactly. So, now I, I do that in kind of a different way, but I still do it, which is I, I set my ideal outcomes out every day. And that goes into with speaking as well. I set in my head what, what the ideal outcome is for me, and I walk into that situation. For breathwork and meditation, I mean, I get up, I do a 10-minute to 20-minute meditation every day to set my day right and to set my mind. And then whenever I’m in a situation or something that’s starting to bring anxiety or stress, I’m a box breather. And I do it, like, I do it in public, right? Like, I’m counting in my head, “One, two, three, four, hold two, three, four, out two, three, four,” Right. Myself back down real quick for people who haven’t heard that,you match, the in breath, a hold, an out breath, and another hold, of the same count of a number of seconds? And I learned about box breathing probably later in life, and I was told that that’s what the Navy SEALs do when going into difficult situations or to regulate your body temperature. That’s how you regulate your body, your nervous system, your body temperature, and I say it works. I do cold plunges as well, and I do my box breath, and it helps Yeah. Wonderful. I can’t recommend those, things that you’ve talked about enough. I love your practice of setting intention and, what is the outcome that you want. That’s a really helpful one. I also start my day with, 20-plus minutes of meditation and, I had a lot of success with incorporating breathwork into my day. These things are pretty proven they work well I have the Open app, and I highly recommend it. There’s breathwork every day that you can do. Above and beyond my box breathing, there’s so many different techniques that can do different things for you. And Open is a really great app that has those that you can go to, and they have a toolbox, right? If you’re stressed or if you need focus or if you need any of those, it’s great Yeah. We also wanna talk about leadership here, and you and I, we spoke before. We talked about there’s a little bit of a tension between collaborative leadership and getting things done because collaboration is so important. You don’t get the full ideas from your group unless everyone feels comfortable participating. At the far end of that extreme, everyone talks about things endlessly, and no one makes a decision. So what is your personal to, optimizing that? I’m a collaborative leader. I love, surrounding myself with incredible, talented people to make the best decisions. And I think that’s one of the most important things to me, and balancing that with being able to say, “Okay,” but at some point you do have to make a decision and move forward, is especially hard when it’s not, a consensus, right? And as a startup founder, this is something that I deal with now every day, right? I bring my team, we are moving fast, everybody has different decisions. So how do you make sure everyone feels seen and heard while making the sharpest decision to move forward? I think as a leader, this is the tightrope that you walk. If you are a collaborative leader, that is the most difficult thing. I’ve worked with leaders that are kind of more authoritarian, and I feel like it squashes the creative possibilities that can make a company move faster, in fact. So it’s kind of counterintuitive. You think that if you are mandating the direction and moving everybody fast in this one direction that you’re gonna be getting the best outcome. But you’re not because you’re not incorporating the wealth of information that is in your team. And hopefully you brought a really great team around you because you thought they were smart. So if you’re not tapping into that, then you’re really losing out. But learning how to be the one who steps up and says, “Okay. No, this is the direction we’re gonna go and, now that we’ve picked our course, everyone move towards it,” it took me a while to learn as a leader. Yeah. I think there’s a tendency for people who are empathetic and care about other people’s feelings to develop that skill and say, “Okay, I hear you, I feel you, but this is enough and we’ve gotta go in this direction.” Yeah. I mean, because it’s kinda like people pleasing, right? Hm. Once I became, the fiduciary for the company, then you realize that, your main concern is the health and welfare of the company, right? And so you have to make decisions according to that and not according to whether or not someone’s gonna be upset, and that’s really hard. In fact, I just went through this. I won’t get into the details, but I just went through this, and personally, I was deeply affected by having to make a really hard decision. But at the end of the day, your legal responsibility as the leader of a company is to the health and welfare of that company, right? And that’s kind of putting aside, HR stuff, right? Obviously you have to treat your people well, you have to, abide by rules and all of that. But when it comes to making decisions or, what is best for the growth of a company or the finances of a company, right? You have to go with what is best for the company, not necessarily what’s best for the team or the person. It’s really hard yeah, and even if you’re not the fiduciary of the company, there’s the higher goals of the company and, are the sets of people’s feelings more important than this goal that we are all working toward, and what, what’s optimal there? and honestly, I think too, like with that, you could have someone who has a great idea that, you know, maybe you should follow, but, if it’s not fitting within your priorities, yeah, you have to make that tough call Yeah. And there’s something illusory about the efficiency you gain by kind of squashing people’s autonomy, let’s just say setting them in a direction where if then people… like, “Okay, I’ve made a decision, and I’ve, created a shortcut to our outcome.” But you’ve tamped down on their own creativity and motivation, and they’re going to slow roll it or, you know, they’re not gonna have the same motivation they would have, had they fully participated in it Or agency. They’re not gonna feel their agency and purpose in it. Ja yeah, that then you don’t have team members, you have employees, right? And there’s a big difference in my mind. Your team is, who you’re excited to work with, and they are coming with ideas, and they are, passionate about the outcome. If you treat people like employees, then you’re just paying for some sort of outcome, and you just start squishing all the creativity, purpose, and, agency. This is something that I deeply believe in is making your team feel like it’s okay to fail if your team hasn’t failed a few times with trying to create something, then they’re not being innovative enough or creative enough, right? Угу And a lot of teams or a lot of people who feel terrified to fail means that they’re not going to be pushing themselves to think about what could be the most incredible thing, right? So that’s something I try and really embrace in my team culture, in how I lead, in how I present, like even myself, right? I know that when I decided to pivot from the news, it wasn’t quite a failure, but, I thought of it as, “Oh, i’m leaving something really, big, and what possibly is gonna be next for me,” right? Became my next best chapter in life. And when I left, I thought of it more in a negative way of like, “Oh, I’m tired and I need to move on,” and like, you know, I didn’t get that one job that I wanted at the top network. And now seeing that I didn’t get that job and I went in this other direction, oh my gosh, I would not want anything else Yeah. It opens opportunity. It creates space for something new to come in Create space. I think that’s the best way to look at it. You have to have space for something new, ‘cause if you don’t have that space, that great moment is not gonna come So you did make this big shift, and when you talk about the shift from broadcast, was that to moving into corporate? I did a lot in a few years. When I shifted from broadcast to where I am now, kind of that journey, what I first did was I said I wanna work with startup founders on communications. And so I was taking side projects helping founders with their communications and their marketing while taking a corporate communications role at a major pharmaceutical company. So I was doing a lot at one time, and also had a baby. So I was trying to figure out where am I finding my bliss? And corporate was not where I was finding my bliss Yeah. then eventually you made the leap to start your own company, which seems to capture a lot of these themes all in one of visibility and, challenging things, forcing you to grow in many ways. So how do you find the demands of this role, and how do you, m-maintain the right level of energy for it? I don’t believe there’s any silver bullet when you’re a startup founder of how to manage, things to keep your work-life balance perfect, right? I see the influencers on Instagram that are like, “I’ve got 90 agents working for me, and so I only work, you know, 20 hours a week.” And I’m like, “No. What? that is not the reality of startup life and technology and being a founder.” So when it comes to energy, I think it goes back to what we were talking about earlier with like how do you set up your day? How do you set your priorities? How are you visualizing the outcomes that you want to happen? I think that’s the most critical thing with managing your energy and hitting your goals is the setup, is the strategy, is the consistency, is the habits. ‘Cause like for me, to do what I do, I have to be grounded in like a, calm state of what I’m gonna hit, my goals. So I meditate. I do my exercise. In the morning, I’m a runner. I do my five miles every day, which is kind of my zen focus. I think about what I need to strategize. I’ve got my planner, so I’m sticking to what outcomes I need, my tasks and my outcomes, so that I can stay in a place of, knowing what needs to happen and it’s not chaos. Because as a startup founder, you can easily slip into chaos because there is too much to do in every direction, right? You need to be talking with people, so you have to be networking, you have to be doing the sales calls, you’re doing the team calls, you’re doing the product calls, you’re doing the product design. You are supposed to be at every startup event in order to make connections, right? You’re doing speaking events, you’re talking to investors. So you have all this energy going in every different direction, usually all in one day. Wow. Yeah and so if you’re not clear on your agenda and what you wanna accomplish, and haven’t started your day right, then you’re just gonna you’re gonna let the day run you, you’re not gonna run the day you’re doing a lot of things to take care of yourself, to take care of your body, take care of your energy, and, keep you grounded and focused. And you speak about purpose for the day. how do you think about higher level goals, and what are your aspirations, that you’re working toward? So what’s very funny is I, every year set my goals. I pick probably, like, five that have to do with my company. I pick a few personal ones. I pick a few health-related ones of like, you know, what I wanna accomplish. Like my last year’s was run a half marathon. I write it down, and I keep it with me. I don’t want to see all my goals, but I keep it with me. Every day I look at it so that I know what my North Star is and what I’m working towards. I think that’s probably one of the most impactful things that I’ve done. And, this is my last year’s goal, so I just spent time on my vacation doing my new goals, which I actually now need to write down. And this goes in my planner. I travel with it. I look at it every day, and that way I know, hey, am I hitting these or am I not? Or do I need to kind of… Like, has something shifted that makes this goal not a priority anymore? And then you know exactly where your priorities, where your time should go. Because if your time isn’t going towards hitting your goal, then you need to kind of reevaluate your calendar, right? I realized that, in March, it was funny. I was kind of doing all this stuff, for my startup, which I thought was necessary. I had a bunch of investor calls. I had signed myself up for some conferences. Every day I was getting through a bunch of tasks, and I was sitting at this conference, and a woman got up, and she said, “If you’re not doing for a few hours every day what will get you towards your number one priority, then, you are not doing the most important thing.” She’s like, “Look at your calendar, and if your number one priority is X and there’s nothing on your calendar to hit that today, then you’re never gonna hit it.” And I looked at my calendar. My number one priority was getting customers, getting our pilot customer. Mm-hmm. looked at my calendar over the last, like, month, and there was not one customer call, and I was like, “I’m not doing that.” And so it completely transformed how I handled my calendar and my time. And so I look at my goals, I look at my calendar, and if it’s not aligned, then I completely stop and say, “Okay. What’s gone awry, and how do I fix it?” This seems so powerful for anyone because it’s your goal at your job, your goal in life. No matter what it is, if you’re not focused every day and thinking about what’s most valuable to you, then those things aren’t gonna happen Yeah. And your calendar is the number one sign. You can see it, right? Mm-hmm It, it’s a dead giveaway One more question, Tamara. So you’ve mentioned that you have been working with a leadership coach. That’s something I’ve done as well. What was the number one thing that you realized working with them and, that it’s the challenge that been for you to kind of change? I think working with a coach is the most important thing you can do as a leader. I didn’t know the significance of it until I spent the money and did it. I was trying to be very cheap, early on in my career growth, and I didn’t have coaches. And when I decided to make this big pivot into launching my own company, I said, I need to get myself into that better spot. I need to invest in myself.” So it was the first time that I did it. I started working with several different, coaches, and it was so powerful. One of the sessions that I did kind of looked at my leadership styles, and so I did this very long questionnaire and interviews and how I lead. And one thing that stood out was that I don’t lead with enough empathy. I lead with trying to, rally people around a mission. And it’s very true, ‘cause I’m an incredibly passionate person when it comes to, what I’m working on, right? Yeah. that’s tapping into their energy, their motivation and, sustaining it or just, shining your light on it, which validating it in a way can be more powerful than what is personally motivating to you if you had one bit of advice for younger aspiring, maybe quieter leaders, what would it be? One bit of advice for younger leaders that consider themselves introverted, Yeah but wanna take the step into leadership Are drawn to growth. I, I would say, push yourself for the chances to, to speak in front of people. And so what I mean by that is find opportunities to be the… to give a speech, practice a speech, and do it in front of people. There’s— I remember in New York, there used to be like Toastmasters was a, a big thing that young aspiring leaders would try and do, because it, it is one of those things that’s uncomfortable, but you, you can’t get away with cutting corners because you’re going to be in front of people. So it’s one of the things that you will learn so much about yourself along the way, and then you do it, and you accomplish something, and by doing it that one time, now the next time’s gonna be easier. And so as you do it, it’ll become more and more easy, and you have to take that first step. But find the spaces to do it, right? Podcasts are great, but, like, getting in front of people, trying to do a TED Talk, doing Toastmasters, just stepping up and asking for that opportunity, and then once you do it, I think you’ll be shocked and amazed at what comes from it That’s great advice. Side note, I just started going to a local Toastmasters with my 22-year-old son, you know, kind of doing that together. It’s been fun I remember it. I mean, it’s been a long time since I did it years ago, and then when I was doing TV. But like, once you start, you realize that Maybe you thought it was harder than it really is, or you learn about yourself and what it takes for you to do hard things. I tell my daughter this all the time. Pick something that’s challenging and do it, because you can do hard things. And the pride that you have after doing something you think is challenging is just phenomenal Tamara, if people wanna learn more about your work and your company, where should they go? go to LinkedIn. So find me on LinkedIn, Tamara Lane. Send me a direct message. I’m a little bit behind on my LinkedIn messages right now, but send me a message. I would love to connect Yeah. Thanks so much for being here on my show today, Tamara Greg (2): Okay, a few things I’m taking away from this conversation with Tamara. Number one, reframe the anxiety not as a problem, but as a sign of growth. It’s something that shows we’re stretching ourselves. Tamara only ever felt her body react in the process of stretching for something bigger. Greg (2): If you’re really feeling it before a big talk, a keynote, a big meeting, that’s information that shows you’re on the path of growth. Give yourself a little grace for that Number two, rewrite the scenario. Your brain is rehearsing a worst-case version of what’s going to happen, and your body is following along. Tamara literally writes down the worst-case version that’s in her head and then reframes it, rewrites it out in the best possible version. Pair that with box breathing, which is in four, hold four, out four, hold four, and you have a tool that you can run right here in the room today. Nobody has to know. And number three, your calendar tells the truth. If the number one priority for you is not represented in your calendar, it’s not going to happen. Tamara reviewed 30 days of her calendar and found her number one priority had zero appointments for it. That’s a check any of us can run today. If this episode landed for you, the easiest thing you can do now is to hit subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. That’s what keeps the show going and more people finding this content, and I appreciate it. and if you ever wanna go deeper, again, my masterclass is called Why Everything You’ve Been Told About Getting Ahead as an Introvert is Wrong. It’s 30 minutes on demand and only requires your email address. Go to gweinger.com. That’s G-W-E-I-N-G-E-R.com/masterclass, one word. I’m Greg Weinger. Keep leading with quiet confidence, and I’ll see you next time.